Carb

[backinblue]

Be aware of what CA has in mind for the future of boating. Millions of cars stuck in traffic every day is fine, but that 4 hp outboard on your dink that you use once in a while is the real problem!

https://boattest.com/article/new-carb-proposals-threaten-future-outboard-engines

 

[rslifkin]

Be aware of what CA has in mind for the future of boating. Millions of cars stuck in traffic every day is fine, but that 4 hp outboard on your dink that you use once in a while is the real problem!

https://boattest.com/article/new-carb-proposals-threaten-future-outboard-engines

This isn't surprising at all. Non-catalyzed outboards, small engines, etc. are far worse emissions wise than a modern car. It's to the point where running a single small outboard for an hour throws more emissions (of most types other than CO2) than driving a car a few hundred miles. Because of that, they're an easy target to clean up. Cleaning up an outboard by 50% is far easier than cleaning up cars by another 10% at this point.

 

[backinblue]

This isn't surprising at all. Non-catalyzed outboards, small engines, etc. are far worse emissions wise than a modern car. It's to the point where running a single small outboard for an hour throws more emissions (of most types other than CO2) than driving a car a few hundred miles. Because of that, they're an easy target to clean up. Cleaning up an outboard by 50% is far easier than cleaning up cars by another 10% at this point.

Thanks. You may be correct, I have no idea, but it sounds correct if you compare some outboards to some cars (guessing similar hp). I would be interested in knowing what percentage do outboards as a whole contribute as a whole to emissions, vs cars, trucks, power plants, etc. Seems to me, without being an expert, that these restrictions are pretty severe and have a big impact on the industry. Maybe it's not a bad thing but I'm guessing all gas small motors could also be outlawed, lawnmowers, snow blowers, chain saws, leaf blowers. Motorcycles and ski-mobiles are probably also on the list if jet skis are. Maybe small private prop planes? There must be lots of engines that are not as clean as cars.

 

[rslifkin]

There's definitely a lot of stuff out there that's pretty dirty compared to a car. But at this point, a lot of the tech needed to clean them up quite a bit (catalysts, better fuel management, etc.) has already been around for years. It just hasn't been used in some of those applications because they haven't needed to. So why spend the extra R&D money to redesign stuff until they need to? And it'll probably cost a little more in some cases as well.

 

[backinblue]

There's definitely a lot of stuff out there that's pretty dirty compared to a car. But at this point, a lot of the tech needed to clean them up quite a bit (catalysts, better fuel management, etc.) has already been around for years. It just hasn't been used in some of those applications because they haven't needed to. So why spend the extra R&D money to redesign stuff until they need to? And it'll probably cost a little more in some cases as well.

I don't disagree. However, in some applications due to space constraints, it's not an easy bolt-on solution. 2-stroke outboards are no longer built or sold and that alone was a big change. Could a chainsaw easily be be made 4-stroke and fitted with catalysts, etc? I'm not against change and progress. Sometimes they just done seem real sensible to me. And again, if the total contributions to emissions of a specific device on a whole are negligible, is it a necessary undertaking?

 

[Ski in NC]

The one thing that is not really discussed is on these outboards and IO's (which are intimate with the water), is how reliable these emission control systems will be. And how many emissions will be created in the process of repairing them, or replacing them.

And many of these engines are used very little compared to a car.

And how many outboards are being run in high smog areas like downtown LA?

Where is the cost/benefit analysis. Cali has LOTS of old cars on the road with either failed emission systems, or the cars are too old to have modern systems. Thanks to a mostly rust free climate, these things can run for decades. Way more emissions there than an outboard running 20 miles from the city.

And how many chainsaws run in downtown LA??

As I understand it (but no expert), HC and NOx emissions out in the countryside or in the ocean are consumed by normal atmospheric chemical/solar radiation reactions. Really only a problem in cities. And only some cities that are prone to smog due to geologic contours and weather patterns.

Seems boneheaded.

 

[DavidM]

I suspect that if all outboards were built with 4 strokes and electronic emissions controls you would significantly reduce emissions with no add-ons like air injection, EGR, cat converters, etc. You would also eliminate most ethanol based varnish build up in the carbs.

Oh and efficiency would also go up.

David

 

[rslifkin]

I suspect that if all outboards were built with 4 strokes and electronic emissions controls you would significantly reduce emissions with no add-ons like air injection, EGR, cat converters, etc. You would also eliminate most ethanol based varnish build up in the carbs.

Oh and efficiency would also go up.

David

Agreed. And once you have EFI, it's fairly easy to add an O2 sensor and a cat to cut emissions further. It's unlikely they'd have to go further than that in the near future, as that would already be a massive reduction in emissions from what a lot of the outboards currently available are putting out.

 

[backinblue]

The one thing that is not really discussed is on these outboards and IO's (which are intimate with the water), is how reliable these emission control systems will be. And how many emissions will be created in the process of repairing them, or replacing them.

And many of these engines are used very little compared to a car.

And how many outboards are being run in high smog areas like downtown LA?

Where is the cost/benefit analysis. Cali has LOTS of old cars on the road with either failed emission systems, or the cars are too old to have modern systems. Thanks to a mostly rust free climate, these things can run for decades. Way more emissions there than an outboard running 20 miles from the city.

And how many chainsaws run in downtown LA??

As I understand it (but no expert), HC and NOx emissions out in the countryside or in the ocean are consumed by normal atmospheric chemical/solar radiation reactions. Really only a problem in cities. And only some cities that are prone to smog due to geologic contours and weather patterns.

Seems boneheaded.

Hmmm boneheaded and CA make perfect sense to me!

 

[backinblue]

Agreed. And once you have EFI, it's fairly easy to add an O2 sensor and a cat to cut emissions further. It's unlikely they'd have to go further than that in the near future, as that would already be a massive reduction in emissions from what a lot of the outboards currently available are putting out.

We already have 4-stroke only production in the U.S. If I read the proposal correctly, they are talking about huge reductions beyond that, and electric-only small outboards. I own an electric and love it, but it's not for everyone and I wouldn't want it to be forced by law.