Canoe (or double end) boats efficient?

[Sailor of Fortune]

I believe this is confusing sailboats and powerboats.

The 120° figure sounds correct for sail, but for power that would seldom ever be achieved in a bluewater design for a recreational boat (versus specialized craft like CG vessels). I bet if you researched Nordies you'd find most in the 90-100° range and perhaps just a few models more than that.

I have received design proposals from several shipyards for bluewater cruisers. One was in the low 70° AVS, and the others were just over 90° and all of these yards built ocean-going fishing trawlers and longliners.

I think I may have rolled 45° once in my life in 2-3 story seas, but I'd be comfortable with a future boat if it were in the 90-ish AVS area.

Perhaps we're going overboard with concerns for ultimate stability.

As you or someone else commented earlier, the technology we have today, including satellite communications and weather-prediction modeling, are much better than decades ago. By just applying a more conservative approach to cruising, carefully picking weather windows, you could likely circumnavigate the planet without ever being hammered by the angry Sea Gods.

Check out the Allweather line of boats. They aren't made anymore but they have a righting moment of 120 degrees according to Ted Brewer (NA) . Small, capable
At least 1 member here has one. They are mostly in PNW and Alaska

 

[Nomad Willy]

Silver,
What boats have bolt on keels.
Never heard of that.

Jack he’s from Gustavus at the mouth of Glacier Bay Ak.

 

[Hippocampus]

Mako- great post. Yes, it was an eye opener to read from multiple sources the divergence between power and sail in AVS. As I’ve repeatedly said I have a lot to learn. I first started to study on this before we sold our boat and it’s clear due to capabilities and mission statement the thinking behind small power and sail is entirely different. Although Oyster and others have been putting large areas of glass into the sides of their hulls for quite some time there’s a huge difference in down flooding risk. To my amateur eye I see a salon encapsulated in glass and a huge house with multiple entrances when looking at most trawlers. Compared to the low (or non existent) house with just one companion way on most sailboats.
I’ve repetitively agreed the taking the “gentleman’s way” to the Caribbean makes sense. But from past experience don’t agree even with current technology you can entirely avoid weather.
Look at the here and now. Due to the marked decrease in airplane flights and to some extent small shipping the data points those commercial craft report to weather services has decreased. Obviously this impacts on the reliability of modeling.
It’s pretty common to leave after one front (or WAVE) has gone through and before the next one comes. Because of this even in the absence of wind events and even when coastal you can see most unpleasant seas. Wave interaction, reflection, deflection and additive events can sometimes not be predicted by you on the deck of a small vessel and the average of the greatest third of wave height can be most misleading. Although rages can be avoided outside Europe and the US crossing bars can be quite exciting in the absence of local knowledge.
Our reality is with the new boat we’ll never be outside helicopter range. But doubt we’ll always be outside the impact of weather or dangerous seas.

 

[FF]

IF time is of little concern there have been articles about sail boats that have circumnavigated and not seen over 35K of wind.

 

[Mako]

Check out the Allweather line of boats. They aren't made anymore but they have a righting moment of 120 degrees according to Ted Brewer (NA) . Small, capable
At least 1 member here has one. They are mostly in PNW and Alaska

Haven’t heard of them but just visited this website. Wow very cool boats! Basically a motor lifeboat hull. Needs stabilization, but very nice. Reminds me of all these nice Willards.

http://allweatherboats.com/

 

[mvweebles]

I’ve repetitively agreed the taking the “gentleman’s way” to the Caribbean makes sense. But from past experience don’t agree even with current technology you can entirely avoid weather.

Our reality is with the new boat we’ll never be outside helicopter range. But doubt we’ll always be outside the impact of weather or dangerous seas.

For me, I am comfortable I can reduce risk of dangerous seas to zero (or dang close). Now, I don't plan on crossing an ocean, but do have ambitious coastal passagemaking plans. I accept that I will hit difficult seas from time to time, but dangerous seas are driven by large pressure systems that are highly predictable. NOAA/NWS uses many monitoring tools, not just vessel-based reports.

Every captain has to make a decision. All I can tell you is my #1 job in cruising is to stay away from junk. My #1 design criteria is windows that don't leak under heavy spray conditions. Roll-over capability is way down the list for me. I like the seakeeping characteristics of heavy ballast, low profile, and a round-butt.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

Silver,
What boats have bolt on keels.
Never heard of that.

Jack he’s from Gustavus at the mouth of Glacier Bay Ak.

A lot of sailboats have bolt on keels. And most don't have much in the way of failure concerns, although a few designs have been a little weak in that area over time. It's mostly an issue after a hard grounding if things aren't inspected well enough.

 

[moparharn]

Have enjoyed reading this thread. I wonder how location can have a bearing on boat design. My friend had an uncle who was a Great Lakes (GL) pilot. He would pilot ocean going boats through the areas of the GL that required a local captain. His uncle insisted that for the most part the ocean sailors did not like the GL. There were uncomfortable with the weather and wave conditions they encountered. Wave period and wave form being the chief concern. I don't know if any of you have ever been on a Lake Erie storm or other GL storms. For the typical pleasure craft Lake Erie can be a washing machine that brings an end to many family boating relationships. I have kayaked during 25 foot seas on Lake Huron(buoy measured) and was perfectly comfortable until it was time to face a surf landing. I wonder if ocean sailors benefit at all from this small fish in a big pond scenario. In my kayak I was the small fish, in a pleasure boat the same situation would have been VERY uncomfortable. So do boat design requirements change from environment to environment? What company could afford to design for GL versus ocean if there is in fact enough difference to warrant it. GL freighters bear no resemblance to their ocean going counterparts. I ask this because I am nearly 95% GL sailor. Not that this matters, but I recall crossing from Bimini to Fort Lauderdale with the SORC Maxis twenty or so miles behind us at mid point. Our Cal 39 routinely lost steerage down the face of the waves we were in. You could literally spin the wheel in either direction and nothing would happen. Not fun. By the time we landed in FL the maxis were tied up, washed, and emptied.
I sailed the same boat in 35 knots on Lake Huron and it was a completely different experience, never lost steerage but almost drowned from the spray. Bill

 

[psneeld]

I remember many, many years ago reading an article in I think Sail magazine that discussed some hull lengths were more suitable in the Pacicif than Atlantic and vice versa.


My personal experience is that small portions (bays, sounds, estuaries) of any ocean can resemble parts of others or the Great Lakes, etc....


I do think though that boats (hull shapes) do evolve and favorites last longer in history till something (tech, stabilization, building materials, etc) lets them evolve further.

 

[mvweebles]

After a while, you get used to uncomfortable seas. GL Sailors are no different - my observation is that despite the bar-stool stories, few sailors/powerboats have spent enough time to get used to the seas. When I was delivering, I could keep a boat comfortably moving in up to 8-foot/6-second head seas as long as it was just a few hours which was pretty common in the afternoon (normal was 5-6 foot chop, 8-foot was not that common). I think the thing with recreational boaters is by the time they'd head out the GG Bridge, it was early afternoon and they'd be in the teeth of the wind, plus any current. They'd never see the easy stuff. So they'd tuck their tail and rarely venture outside the confines of SF Bay (which, in all fairness, has fantastic sailing and is still pretty challenging). Same with SoCal (Pt Conception/Arguello); and I'd imagine PNW sailors view Straits of Juan de Fuca, but that's just a guess.

Boats really do adapt to their local conditions. Perhaps the last great California-built sailboat was Bill "Fast-is-Fun" Lee's SC52 Merlin that probably still holds a couple Transpac records. He figured out it was faster to go through the waves than over them. I'd imagine a pretty wet ride. West Coast fishing boats have higher bows that are more plumb compared to Gulf Coast shrimper's, for example.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Remember reading for a mom and pop 40-50’ LWL is ideal. Small enough never to worry about her breaking her back with stern on one wave and bow on another. But adequate size so beam of boat will be as great as height of the seas decreasing risk of capsize. And LWL long enough to prevent pitchpoling. This while this size allows reasonable expense and ability to function without dependence on additional crew. In terms of comfort until waves are breaking wave height generally gives little discomfort if period is adequate. It’s the short period and or multidirectional confused seas that seem to trouble folks the most.
In spite of the direction this thread has taken I’m not that concerned about sustained heavy heavy weather. In 35 years and thousands of miles have been in force 10 and greater once. But have been in T storms, line squalls, and few gales enough I can’t recall a number. Continue to believe in many respects coastal is more demanding than ocean

 

[BrianG]

I have a glass over cedar Monterey double ender. Lines were pulled from a 1903 Monterey. All I know is this is a battle tested design and so far beats my old squared off transon sportfisher in a following sea. So far it really doesnt seem that I need a 90 degree angle on an approaching swell to get the splitting effect. Seems to slice through it like a knife through butter on a 45 angle. Central California Coastal cruising seems to be her turf in surf. I have no plans to try her in the Straights of Magellan. I love the look too though occasionally get stern envy observing fat keels with doors and built in swim steps and Blue LED lighting. Visions of expensive champagne and exotic women abound.

 

[BrianG]

Another comment about double enders, I'm still getting used to mine, but as we know, non bow thrustered single screws can be "interesting" in tight spots. My DE loves to go in reverse. Common sense of course but I never thought of that until I got one. It even seems to have a semblance of steering going backwards. Reverse on my old sportfisher was pretty much useful as a brake only. Could never get control of her. DE's can be backwards kinda gals.

 

[Andiamo2018]

Sailboats with wide flat sterns are that way for 'surfing'

I gave up reading the misinformation after page 1

Sailboats with wide and relatively flat sterns are that way for 'surfing' going mostly downwind. Giant spinnakers and all that. Those are the boats that stay upside down if they get pushed over. Those boats also get a lot of lift from following seas that push them onto a plane.

NON planning hulls (or boats going too slow to plane) with wide flatish sterns get pushed around by following seas.

 

[Ross Macdonald]

Great thread. I have never crossed and ocean and don't plan on doing so. But my wife and I have made the trip from San Diego to Puerto Vallarta 7 times over the last 12 years in a 58ft. production pilothouse boat. One of the key factors we have learned is you cannot have any deadlines. Almost everyone we ran into at various stops along the way that got their butts kicked were on a tight schedule. We have used Weather Routing out of NY on every trip and combine that with forecasts from 4 different sites. If the weather is above our constraints (which are low) then we wait for a window. Fortunately the longest leg might be 240 miles. We stop at all the anchorages on the way North and wait for the next window. So far, the weather intel has been about 98% spot on for us. We once waited in San Juanico (a good anchorage)for 9 days for another window. Enjoyed the anchorage and met other folks heading north as well. So I can't speak to the original topic but for our cruising up and down the outside of baja california weather is the key. Ross

 

[sndbowen]

This is from the thread “Will trawlers disapear?”

socal,
A canoe stern is not much different than a run-of-the mill sailboat stern. So providing a canoe stern on a sailboat is a very insignificant difference. So style could be a resson to do it.
But on a trawler it’ significant to say the least. First off most trawlers are SD hulled boats and one almost needs a SD hull for a canoe stern.

Dan wrote;
“Is it correct to say, canoe stern do not like following seas?“

Very incorrect. Basically it’s the best stern for following seas.
I once asked someone who should know the same question and he said ideally the best hull for stern seas would be when both ends looked just the same.

I don’t know how many will relate to this but a double end boat at an angle to stern seas will nest into two crests and a trough w the w the port bow resting on the face of a wave ahead and the stern nesting on the stbd stern quarter of the wave aft. Think about it.
With the stern at an angle with a big box corner sticking out or trying to be inside that stern wave a lot of lift will occur and twist the boat .. anti- clockwise. This will push the stbd bow into the wave but little lift will occur at the corner because of the pointy shape. Boat is experiencing heavy anti-clockwise roll input. W/o lift fwd and to stbd the aft port corner will lift easily and smartly rotate the boat for a nice beginning of an anti-clockwise capsize falling to port into the trough.
But with a canoe stern the same scenario above would not promote boat rotation promoted by the port stern corner as in above. And thus w both corners much the same (in shape) only small amounts of lift will occur AT EACH CORNER. So far less rolling forces will be acting on the boat. So there’s little rolling .. depending on specific design.

We sailed a Valiant 42 for several years and loved the canoe stern.

 

[Sangraal]

You are right - dinghy boarding is definitely compromised. We have a hull-gate but it's small. Not like a nice broad swim platform. But there are some pluses - we don't pay slip-rent on a swim platform, and the settee in the aft deck is sumptuous. But I have to admit that if there is a little chop in the anchorage, getting from dinghy to boat is a bit rocky.

Peter
View attachment 108264

Our canoe stern access hatch was well thought out a James Krogen. It’s easy to use, and the boat is very good down wind in a seaway. The Kadey Krogen 54 has a lot of North Sea Fishing boat hull shape in according to the builders and I see that having lived in the UK for 40 years prior to moving to the USA.

 

[Joe Pica]

Hull Design question

I don't know how you would classify these hulls which are similar on FD trawlers. One is a Great Harbour N-37 the other a Great Lakes Net Boat.I know the Great Harbour Hull loves a following sea which we appreciated during our 44,000 miles of cruising with off shore runs of up to 340 miles. We were diligent with weather. However had a much greater weather tolerance if winds and seas were to be on our stern.

 

[hollywood8118]

I do know the our previous boat was a modified seiner hull with a very square stern with lots of reserve buoyancy. She loved to "surf" in big seas from the stern while going down wind. I was told that the under body of these sterns helps push the boat along as the wave builds at the stern. I do know that she was big 48', heavy , fat and would carry a lot of weight easily. Consistently she averaged 2.3 gph (proven year after year over 10 years using a day tank with a sight glass) at 8kts. That included all generator time 2 hrs daily, for a 2 week trip to Desolation Sound.



Personally I have never been a fan of a true canoe stern boat.


I can dig for a pic .. but she had a stern like the one below.. without all the rust
HOLLYWOOD

 

[Johnnymc]

Double enders

When I was at Coast Guard Station Ketchikan in the 1980's there were many old double ender wooden boats from the 1930's. They were still out commercial fishing after all those years and countless storms. They had to be very well built on a very good design to survive as long as they did.

 

[Mako]

One of the key factors we have learned is you cannot have any deadlines. Almost everyone we ran into at various stops along the way that got their butts kicked were on a tight schedule.

I think you're right. The worst weather I was ever in, which were survival conditions, were because I was impatient and pushed my departure date when I should have waited a few more weeks.


Of course that was back when I was in my 20's and knew everything in the world. Now I'm a lot older and not as smart

 

[Hippocampus]

Post #74 is entirely wrong.

The pizza pie stern on southern ocean racers is done that way to improve UPWIND not downwind performance. They track like on rails. As said multiple times here what matters is the part that’s wet. The wet part is totally balanced and handling is just fine. When going down wind there’s much less dry hull exposed to boarding seas. The freeboard on these hulls is quite low. On some boats a daggerboard is dropped to lessen the work done by the AP. These boats go to the southern ocean because it’s the shortest distance to go around the world. It is constantly at force 9 or higher. That post is not factually based.

 

[Northern Spy]

I disagree. Most of the Vendee Globe (80-85%) is downwind or on the beam. Not much pointing except to get out of the Bay of Biscay. Open 60s and IMOCA boats are giant surfboards.

Can't say much about the boat in the upcoming race, as I think the are foil boats.

 

[Hippocampus]

NS there’s nothing to disagree about. Thought it was obvious that they go entirely down wind while in the southern ocean. It’s the leg down or back that involves upwind work. The majority of the miles are down wind. I choose that race to demonstrate how false the prior posts statement was that that type of stern,was unstable while running when it’s just the opposite. Guess people aren’t familiar with the direction performance sailboat hulls have gone and why. The other confusion arises because several production hulls look like these boats but have little in common beyond a few visual cues.
Returning the OP one may wish to read Dashew, Perry, Irons, Kasten or innumerable other NAs as to the evolution of sterns. At this point it’s of historical interest. Yes many fine seaboats with that stern. But name even one new design where was used except due to a specific client request for aesthetics

 

[Nomad Willy]

Johnnymc,
Welcome to TF.
We lived in Thorne Bay from about 06 to 2014.

Yes to old fish boats. But perhaps the biggest reason they lasted so long is that it was so much cheaper to repair them than get another boat. Wood boats being built out of many many mostly small wood parts and small repairs were constantly going on in the harbor .. by men that knew what they were doing.

Miss running our boat to K town and spending time at the KYC.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Mako wrote;
“Of course that was back when I was in my 20's and knew everything in the world. Now I'm a lot older and not as smart”

Yup,
I crossed Dixon Entrance in a home made made (me) OB boat. It turned into a gale w seas the size of houses. That was 1972. Ran all the way from PR to Juneau .. no nav equipment at all. Well I. did have a forest service map (green and blue) and a “Silva” compass. From Ketchikan to Juneau had good weather. Invincible? .. must have been.

 

[BrianG]

are the design objectives of zillion dollar sailboats made for sailing across the southern ocean relevant? It relates to trawlers?

 

[Northern Spy]

are the design objectives of zillion dollar sailboats made for sailing across the southern ocean relevant? It relates to trawlers?

Nope.

 

[BrianG]

Nope.

I have actually checked the address bar twice because thought I'd stumbled into Cruisersforum.

 

[Northern Spy]

I have actually checked the address bar twice because thought I'd stumbled into Cruisersforum.

Hippocampus is parting ways with sailing and purchasing a trawler. The transition speed from pulling sheets and discussing Elvestroms rules is slower for some. I am merely facilitating ... [emoji846]