Build Quality Poll

[bligh]

Ok, so this is not a quick poll. I am trying to discern build quality of different manufacturers of boats in the 35-60ft range built 1995 or later

Here are the rules;

Below a list of boat manufacturers in no particular order. Please reply to this post by rearranging the list from best to worst in regards to build quality.

If you are not familiar with a brand, OMIT it from your reply.

If there is a brand that I missed that you are familiar with, please add it to your list.

Ok, again, please put them in order in regards to build quality. Not your favorite- not prettiest, not best mileage, not best anchor etc.

Build quality is what I request your list to reflect- Basically everything that occurs from when a yard gets plans for the boat and it leaves the yard as a finished product. Hull, fiberglass, decks, hardware, plumbing , electrical and mechanical, workmanship.


Hatteras
Seahorse Marine
Selene
Offshore
Krogen
Mckinna
Meridian
Navigator
Sea Ray
Bayliner
American Tug
Nordic Tug
Grand Banks
Nordhavn
Symbol
Ocean Alexander
Bertram
Mediterranean
Eagle
Viking
Silverton
Elling
Hampton
Integrity
Fleming

Maybe once everyone has their lists posted we can engage in thoughtful debate!

 

[NewbieFromNJ]

You did not list my boat. See avatar.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Sorry mine is only 30 feet and from 1994 so does not fit

 

[McGillicuddy]

Cheoy Lee is also missing.

 

[BruceK]

No IG or Halvorsen. I`m sulking.

 

[BandB]

There are so many elements of quality that it's definitely a stab in the dark.

I'm rating from zero to ten, with zero being a boat I wouldn't touch under any conditions and 10 being unbeatable in their size and type. 5 is average. I am not giving any weight to price.

In quality, I'm counting construction of the boat and the quality of the materials throughout including their installations of equipment, wiring and plumbing. No rating on those I don't feel confident evaluating.


Hatteras - 9
Seahorse Marine - 8
Selene - 5
Offshore - NR
Krogen - 7
Mckinna - 7
Meridian - 4
Navigator - NR
Sea Ray - 5
Bayliner - 7
American Tug - 7
Nordic Tug - 7
Grand Banks - 5
Nordhavn - 7
Symbol - NR
Ocean Alexander - 5
Bertram - 3
Mediterranean - NR
Eagle - NR
Viking - 9
Silverton - 4
Elling - 6
Hampton - 5
Integrity - NR
Fleming - 10

Some are difficult too because you have such variations in various sizes and periods of time. For instance, there are many years of a Bertram I wouldn't consider under any circumstances. They had major issues with their hulls for some of their latter years. It started downhill before Ferretti ande continued. Now, some of the older boats, much better, but this list was 1995-present per the OP. Bertram also had good performance at one time but didn't improve while everyone else did.

 

[Crusty Chief]

Insufficient knowledge of most of these, though I'm some what partial to Selene, Norhavn, KK,Krogen and Fleming.

 

[Drake]

Defever?

 

[AndrewAdams]

If you're really worked up about this, buy and study Pascoe's "Surveying Fiberglass Powerboats."

 

[psneeld]

If you're really worked up about this, buy and study Pascoe's "Surveying Fiberglass Powerboats."

And then ask other people in the boating business where he may go a bit too far or not enough.

 

[sunchaser]

Too many confuse glitz with quality. That is OK, it keeps the new boat business thriving.

A parallel set of questions is what defines a quality SUV, house, painting or furniture? This "judging" conundrum has baffled man for eons, always will. 150 years ago a question was what determines a quality steam engine or telegraph pad.

 

[Insequent]

There are so many elements of quality that it's definitely a stab in the dark.

I'm rating from zero to ten, with zero being a boat I wouldn't touch under any conditions and 10 being unbeatable in their size and type. 5 is average. I am not giving any weight to price.

In quality, I'm counting construction of the boat and the quality of the materials throughout including their installations of equipment, wiring and plumbing. No rating on those I don't feel confident evaluating.


Hatteras - 9
Seahorse Marine - 8
Selene - 5
Offshore - NR
Krogen - 7
Mckinna - 7
Meridian - 4
Navigator - NR
Sea Ray - 5
Bayliner - 7
American Tug - 7
Nordic Tug - 7
Grand Banks - 5
Nordhavn - 7
Symbol - NR
Ocean Alexander - 5
Bertram - 3
Mediterranean - NR
Eagle - NR
Viking - 9
Silverton - 4
Elling - 6
Hampton - 5
Integrity - NR
Fleming - 10

Some are difficult too because you have such variations in various sizes and periods of time. For instance, there are many years of a Bertram I wouldn't consider under any circumstances. They had major issues with their hulls for some of their latter years. It started downhill before Ferretti ande continued. Now, some of the older boats, much better, but this list was 1995-present per the OP. Bertram also had good performance at one time but didn't improve while everyone else did.

Many of these brands I know little of. The ones I'm familiar with, your ratings are reasonable - with one major exception. To my knowledge only one has had a total loss on a maiden voyage - the Seahorse Marine build of 'Kekada'
54' Yacht "KEDAKA" Lost at Sea. - Topic

I think Don (Navigator on TF) has been very magnanimous about the loss, I guess grateful no-one was injured or killed. But it was almost 3 years before he had Anja's permission to start looking for a replacement vessel. And not long after some health issues intervened so I'm not sure they managed to get back on the water. Their blog had so much excitement during the build, and enthusiasm for the cruising post launch. Its a sad story I'll not forget.

I can't see how Seahorse can be very highly rated at all. Apart from Kekada, during my refit I had a Duck alongside me for quite some time and saw a lot of work being done. It came back annually for hit lists of items, beyond routine R&M.

Now, Seahorse may have got on top of quality control in recent years, but be sure to survey well.

 

[cafesport]

A 95 Bertram is not the same as a 2006 Bertram just look at the delamination issue on the 63 the ferretti rebadge of the Bertram battle wagon. Same can be said for all the others. The luxury tax in '92 changed the industry. Viking barely survived. Egg harbor did not along with a host of others. Many brands re emerged in name only. Then there was the 2006 financial collapse and the Brunswick consolidation. I think you might need to compile a '95, '05, '15 list to get close to the answer you are seeking.

 

[Nomad Willy]

This can only be an extreme list of opinions.
It's already turned into a "what about my boat" thing.
This could be very interesting for builders to ponder as percieved guality is very important to them.
And of course it actually would be great if it really was an indication of real quality.
It's something to talk about though and that in itself has merrit these days.

 

[ranger58sb]

Can't speak to almost all of those, given no long-term exposure. Viewing at a boat show or even a ride or two on a friend's boat... not enough for me to judge,

I can say Mainship, Wellcraft, and Silverton, have all been "pretty good" -- certainly "good enough" to meet our requirements, at least the specific models we've owned -- but I can't provide any hands-on comparison to others on the list.

-Chris

 

[LarryM]

I have no first-hand experience with many of the boats on the original list. Here are a few I do have some experience with, or at least exposure to, that I feel belong at or near the top of any such list.

Hinckley
Sabre/Sabreline
MJM
Back Cove
Bruckmann

 

[GFC]

SeaRay on top. Who or what are the rest of those names?

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

In the mid nineties, many of the builders were beginning to move their yards from Taiwan to the mainland for economic reasons. There was/is a dearth of skilled craftsmen available for hire on the mainland at that time. The general think of the mainlanders at that was quantity over quality... This was written about in Ocean Alexander the first 25 years by Marianne Scott... OA began production and then shut the yard down until they could further train the workers, even then the boats built on the mainland were marketed under the Altus brand.

I assume that OA was not unique in finding qualified workers at that time so I would be suspect of almost any brand built on the mainland during the 90's and early 2000s.

 

[Tom.B]

Navigator - 8

That is all

 

[ksanders]

There are so many elements of quality that it's definitely a stab in the dark.

I'm rating from zero to ten, with zero being a boat I wouldn't touch under any conditions and 10 being unbeatable in their size and type. 5 is average. I am not giving any weight to price.

In quality, I'm counting construction of the boat and the quality of the materials throughout including their installations of equipment, wiring and plumbing. No rating on those I don't feel confident evaluating.



Meridian - 4
Bayliner - 7


Some are difficult too because you have such variations in various sizes and periods of time. For instance, there are many years of a Bertram I wouldn't consider under any circumstances. They had major issues with their hulls for some of their latter years. It started downhill before Ferretti ande continued. Now, some of the older boats, much better, but this list was 1995-present per the OP. Bertram also had good performance at one time but didn't improve while everyone else did.

While I am not necessarially disagreeing with the rating(s), it is interesting to note that my 2001 Bayliner 4788 was re-branded to Meridian in 2003 model year, when Meridian was separated from Bayliner Mororyachts

They actually had 2003 Bayliners that they took anything that says "bayliner" off of and replaced it with "meridian"

The Pilothouse models continued to be made in the same factory in Washington, by the same people, with essentially the same materials, and with the same natural progression in improvements that you will see in any long production run.

Yes, there was some slight changes, and they did for one year (2003 or 2004 I beleive) make a "High Gloss Cherry" option which sure looked nice, but they are really the same boats.

But, we are all subject to "brand bias" so we would all tend to rate the Meridian higher, even me an owner, and even you someone that has championed Bayliner Motoryachts seemingly forever here on TF.

 

[BandB]

While I am not necessarially disagreeing with the rating(s), it is interesting to note that my 2001 Bayliner 4788 was re-branded to Meridian in 2003 model year, when Meridian was separated from Bayliner Mororyachts

They actually had 2003 Bayliners that they took anything that says "bayliner" off of and replaced it with "meridian"

The Pilothouse models continued to be made in the same factory in Washington, by the same people, with essentially the same materials, and with the same natural progression in improvements that you will see in any long production run.

Yes, there was some slight changes, and they did for one year (2003 or 2004 I beleive) make a "High Gloss Cherry" option which sure looked nice, but they are really the same boats.

But, we are all subject to "brand bias" so we would all tend to rate the Meridian higher, even me an owner, and even you someone that has championed Bayliner Motoryachts seemingly forever here on TF.

I would rate the first Meridian's equal to Bayliner. However, the move away from the Arlington plant changed things and it's continued. I may have given too much weight to Meridian's current state of affairs. They are down to two boats, a 39' and 44' and they're now a bit like Sea Ray's ugly step sister. I don't expect to see the label around much longer. So, 2003-2004 I might have given a 7, but that boat doesn't exist today.

I think the Arlington plant was one of the best in the industry.

 

[ksanders]

I would rate the first Meridian's equal to Bayliner. However, the move away from the Arlington plant changed things and it's continued. I may have given too much weight to Meridian's current state of affairs. They are down to two boats, a 39' and 44' and they're now a bit like Sea Ray's ugly step sister. I don't expect to see the label around much longer. So, 2003-2004 I might have given a 7, but that boat doesn't exist today.

I think the Arlington plant was one of the best in the industry.

I misread your numbering scheme. My aplogies.

You rated the Bayliner's higher than the Meridians. I thought it was the opposite.

As an owner I mentally rated Meridian higher, because I of course hoped they had improved on the boats.

Very interesting...

I wonder if owners rate their own brand lower than others because they know of that boats shortcomings and assume that other brands do not suffer from the same issues?

 

[BandB]

I misread your numbering scheme. My aplogies.

You rated the Bayliner's higher than the Meridians. I thought it was the opposite.

As an owner I mentally rated Meridian higher, because I of course hoped they had improved on the boats.

Very interesting...

I wonder if owners rate their own brand lower than others because they know of that boats shortcomings and assume that other brands do not suffer from the same issues?

I don't know how it impacts. I think we tend to rate our own higher. Interestingly, we don't own any of the listed boats and the only one of the brands I've ever owned was a Sea Ray which based on the ones i owned, I would rate higher than I did.

I know the brands we own, we'd rate high. We chose them because we rated them high. Still in rating I was torn between boats over the period of time and even specific models, as well as some prejudices I know i have. Also, I consider a 5 to be a good boat, so really not rating anything bad except Bertram which has a period during the years we're talking about of many disastrous builds and pretty much destroyed a brand.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
I am very hesitant to rate our boat against anything because I haven't been on many of the brands listed. Some, I barely recognize the name.
Difficult to compare even within the same brand. As has been noted, personnel and manufacturing sites change as well as incorporation of new and better materials and techniques (hopefully) so yesterdays Brand X might be rated completely opposite than today's Brand X even within the same company. Exactly the same situation with most consumer products. Anyone remember "This isn't your father's Oldsmobile"?

 

[FF]

TO me "quality" means the boat is not built to self destruct in time.

More time to go cruising , less time fighting a never ending battle.

 

[Northern Spy]

Discussing quality without agreeing on objective criteria first, can be an excercise in frustration.

Ask Robert Persig...

 

[sunchaser]

Discussing quality without agreeing on objective criteria first, can be an excercise in frustration.

Ask Robert Persig...

What was Robert's favorite quality motorcycle? If I'm not mistaken it was one that could be repaired easily.

 

[Northern Spy]

BSA maybe? His buddy had a beemer.

 

[bligh]

I have no first-hand experience with many of the boats on the original list. Here are a few I do have some experience with, or at least exposure to, that I feel belong at or near the top of any such list.

Hinckley
Sabre/Sabreline
MJM
Back Cove
Bruckmann

Could you assign a 1 to 10 rating of those manufacturers to see where you think they stand in relation to each other?

 

[sunchaser]

Could you assign a 1 to 10 rating of those manufacturers to see where you think they stand in relation to each other?

Sabre considers the Back Cove a lesser vessel and prices it accordingly. Not to mention several of these listed boats have IPS, hummm speaking of drive line reliability.