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Old 02-23-2017, 04:38 PM   #21
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While I am not necessarially disagreeing with the rating(s), it is interesting to note that my 2001 Bayliner 4788 was re-branded to Meridian in 2003 model year, when Meridian was separated from Bayliner Mororyachts

They actually had 2003 Bayliners that they took anything that says "bayliner" off of and replaced it with "meridian"

The Pilothouse models continued to be made in the same factory in Washington, by the same people, with essentially the same materials, and with the same natural progression in improvements that you will see in any long production run.

Yes, there was some slight changes, and they did for one year (2003 or 2004 I beleive) make a "High Gloss Cherry" option which sure looked nice, but they are really the same boats.

But, we are all subject to "brand bias" so we would all tend to rate the Meridian higher, even me an owner, and even you someone that has championed Bayliner Motoryachts seemingly forever here on TF.
I would rate the first Meridian's equal to Bayliner. However, the move away from the Arlington plant changed things and it's continued. I may have given too much weight to Meridian's current state of affairs. They are down to two boats, a 39' and 44' and they're now a bit like Sea Ray's ugly step sister. I don't expect to see the label around much longer. So, 2003-2004 I might have given a 7, but that boat doesn't exist today.

I think the Arlington plant was one of the best in the industry.
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:10 PM   #22
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I would rate the first Meridian's equal to Bayliner. However, the move away from the Arlington plant changed things and it's continued. I may have given too much weight to Meridian's current state of affairs. They are down to two boats, a 39' and 44' and they're now a bit like Sea Ray's ugly step sister. I don't expect to see the label around much longer. So, 2003-2004 I might have given a 7, but that boat doesn't exist today.

I think the Arlington plant was one of the best in the industry.
I misread your numbering scheme. My aplogies.

You rated the Bayliner's higher than the Meridians. I thought it was the opposite.

As an owner I mentally rated Meridian higher, because I of course hoped they had improved on the boats.

Very interesting...

I wonder if owners rate their own brand lower than others because they know of that boats shortcomings and assume that other brands do not suffer from the same issues?
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:36 PM   #23
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I misread your numbering scheme. My aplogies.

You rated the Bayliner's higher than the Meridians. I thought it was the opposite.

As an owner I mentally rated Meridian higher, because I of course hoped they had improved on the boats.

Very interesting...

I wonder if owners rate their own brand lower than others because they know of that boats shortcomings and assume that other brands do not suffer from the same issues?
I don't know how it impacts. I think we tend to rate our own higher. Interestingly, we don't own any of the listed boats and the only one of the brands I've ever owned was a Sea Ray which based on the ones i owned, I would rate higher than I did.

I know the brands we own, we'd rate high. We chose them because we rated them high. Still in rating I was torn between boats over the period of time and even specific models, as well as some prejudices I know i have. Also, I consider a 5 to be a good boat, so really not rating anything bad except Bertram which has a period during the years we're talking about of many disastrous builds and pretty much destroyed a brand.
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:37 PM   #24
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Greetings,
I am very hesitant to rate our boat against anything because I haven't been on many of the brands listed. Some, I barely recognize the name.
Difficult to compare even within the same brand. As has been noted, personnel and manufacturing sites change as well as incorporation of new and better materials and techniques (hopefully) so yesterdays Brand X might be rated completely opposite than today's Brand X even within the same company. Exactly the same situation with most consumer products. Anyone remember "This isn't your father's Oldsmobile"?
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Old 02-24-2017, 07:29 AM   #25
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TO me "quality" means the boat is not built to self destruct in time.

More time to go cruising , less time fighting a never ending battle.
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Old 02-24-2017, 09:18 AM   #26
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Discussing quality without agreeing on objective criteria first, can be an excercise in frustration.

Ask Robert Persig...
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:19 AM   #27
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Discussing quality without agreeing on objective criteria first, can be an excercise in frustration.

Ask Robert Persig...
What was Robert's favorite quality motorcycle? If I'm not mistaken it was one that could be repaired easily.
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Old 02-24-2017, 10:29 AM   #28
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BSA maybe? His buddy had a beemer.
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Old 02-24-2017, 01:24 PM   #29
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I have no first-hand experience with many of the boats on the original list. Here are a few I do have some experience with, or at least exposure to, that I feel belong at or near the top of any such list.

Hinckley
Sabre/Sabreline
MJM
Back Cove
Bruckmann

Could you assign a 1 to 10 rating of those manufacturers to see where you think they stand in relation to each other?
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Old 02-24-2017, 01:32 PM   #30
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Could you assign a 1 to 10 rating of those manufacturers to see where you think they stand in relation to each other?
Sabre considers the Back Cove a lesser vessel and prices it accordingly. Not to mention several of these listed boats have IPS, hummm speaking of drive line reliability.
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Old 02-24-2017, 01:35 PM   #31
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I'm surprised no one has jumped in with at least a partial rating of this list. FYI, I only listed boats that were for sale on the west coast. So if your favorite east cost brand is missing or European brand is missing, that is why. Please add your brand and rate it in comparison to other brands you are familiar with. I am not familiar with most brands, but i will post my limited opinion as well.
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Old 02-24-2017, 01:38 PM   #32
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Hatteras 8
Seahorse Marine
Selene 7
Offshore
Krogen 8
Mckinna
Meridian
Navigator
Sea Ray
Bayliner 6
American Tug 8
Nordic Tug 7
Grand Banks
Nordhavn
Symbol
Ocean Alexander
Bertram
Mediterranean
Eagle
Viking
Silverton
Elling
Hampton
Integrity
Fleming

These observations are from owning only one brand and physically inspecting other boats I have been on that I have been interested in purchasing. Im really curious where you all think many of the other brands fall in relation to the brands I am familiar with.
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Old 02-24-2017, 01:41 PM   #33
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Hatteras - 9
Seahorse Marine - 8
Selene - 5
Offshore - NR
Krogen - 7
Mckinna - 7
Meridian - 4
Navigator - NR
Sea Ray - 5
Bayliner - 7
American Tug - 7
Nordic Tug - 7
Grand Banks - 5
Nordhavn - 7
Symbol - NR
Ocean Alexander - 5
Bertram - 3
Mediterranean - NR
Eagle - NR
Viking - 9
Silverton - 4
Elling - 6
Hampton - 5
Integrity - NR
Fleming - 10
Interesting. While selene seems to command a high price in teh used market, your rating is only 5, while you have Seahorse rated at 8, but commands a much lower price on eh used market (even for fiberglass hulls).
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Old 02-24-2017, 02:12 PM   #34
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BSA maybe? His buddy had a beemer.
As I recall it was a Honda Superhawk of about 305cc.

Believe me - nobody ever mentions BSA and "quality" in the same sentence.

I have two BSAs and two spare motors. And I'm not afraid to use them.
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Old 02-24-2017, 02:16 PM   #35
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I don't see Marine Trader on the list.
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Old 02-24-2017, 02:17 PM   #36
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Believe me - nobody ever mentions BSA and "quality" in the same sentence.

I have two BSAs and two spare motors. And I'm not afraid to use them.

Had a friend's BSA spew its transmission all over the road underneath me, once...

Got my attention, that did!

And then of course I coasted to a stop...

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Old 02-24-2017, 02:22 PM   #37
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I'm surprised no one has jumped in with at least a partial rating of this list. FYI, I only listed boats that were for sale on the west coast. So if your favorite east cost brand is missing or European brand is missing, that is why. Please add your brand and rate it in comparison to other brands you are familiar with. I am not familiar with most brands, but i will post my limited opinion as well.
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Can't speak to almost all of those, given no long-term exposure. Viewing at a boat show or even a ride or two on a friend's boat... not enough for me to judge,

I can say Mainship, Wellcraft, and Silverton, have all been "pretty good" -- certainly "good enough" to meet our requirements, at least the specific models we've owned -- but I can't provide any hands-on comparison to others on the list.

OK, if current Nordhavn, Hatteras, Vikings, and Flemings are 10s or 11s... my "pretty good" based on the actual boats I've been familiar with for Mainship and Silverton would be 7 (or a high 6 or so), and Wellcraft could be a 6. Actually, the latter was simply less "fancy" (no interior wood, either) so the rating addresses more than just the idea of build quality.

Individual boats from each marque may rate slightly lower...

And I don't really know so much first-hand about Nordhavn, Hatteras, Viking, or Fleming models... so the hypothetical 10 (or 11) is purely theoretical, for me.

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Old 02-24-2017, 02:42 PM   #38
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Interesting. While selene seems to command a high price in teh used market, your rating is only 5, while you have Seahorse rated at 8, but commands a much lower price on eh used market (even for fiberglass hulls).
I think based on other comments and information I didn't know at the time, I rated Seahorse too high. I still think of Selene as being a good, solid boat, but a step below some others. Still I wouldn't have been uncomfortable rating them a 6.

My ratings for Seahorse were only based on steel hulls and really based on Diesel Duck and Coot. I'm only aware of the one incident pointed out here, but even based on that I'd lower them to a 6 or 7 perhaps.

The lower price doesn't surprise me at all on the used market. First, they're priced fairly low when new. Then people just don't want steel in that size boat, so they've got a limited market.

The quality of most boats is good. There are very few boats built that you need to worry about delamination or other major problems. The biggest differences are design (including sea states designed for), quality of equipment and installation of equipment, and then things like tendency to leak in various areas whether from above or outside.

Boats have been around long enough that you don't see bad hulls, bad designs in that respect. You may see someone purchasing a boat designed for coastal cruising and disappointed it's not build for ocean going.

Quality of equipment, most use the same of fairly equal suppliers. However, they may shortcut on things like hoses and tanks. They may also do it on teak and other woods, going thinner than desired. Some build interiors that perhaps we wouldn't like at all but I see that as just an issue of taste, not quality. Now, back on installation of equipment, I'll give a couple of examples where that comes into play. I do not like Nordhavn's commissioning system. It takes way too long and seems to be fraught with potential issues. I see buyers taking the entire first year getting it all properly sorted. I would probably raise my Sea Ray number slightly. I like Sea Ray. However, I've seen buyers of their L series with punch lists and post purchase issues that are just way too long. We were a potential buyer until uncovering those issues. That doesn't impact the tried and true Sundancer series, but might or might not impact some of the new models, such as the fly versions.

Not on the list, but a boat that gets more discussion as to quality than any I know is Azimut. A lot of haters. Confusing. European buyers are very happy. US buyers are driven insane by things like wiring of the electronics and it appears to be on some boats built in Italy and some from Brazil. Yes, Azumut builds in Brazil for this market too. However, their hull is fine. Part of the US issue is that all warranty is handled through Marine Max. They act as the dealer and the manufacturer's representative, and people struggle to get all the issues fixed. I'd give them a "don't touch" score in the US but that basic boat is fine.

In many ways, we're not just rating quality of build, but quality of the total experience. There's one boat that many owners really like but if you put it on the list, it would get a zero from me in terms of buying it new because I just don't trust them. On the other hand, a used one can be surveyed and it is what it is, but you're not putting money at risk for a long build period.

It's interesting too to see things that influence our ratings. Richard's trips on Dauntless have to impact how one views KK. All those cruising the world on Nordhavn surely influences opinion, although the Atlantic Crossing they did lowered my opinion of them. Probably why they haven't repeated. Part of it is size as those cruising the world are most often 60' and above and the ones on the Crossing were largely smaller, but also Nordhavn was having issues at that time with stabilizers. Reading Tony Fleming's cruise blogs certainly impacts how I feel about Fleming.
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Old 02-24-2017, 03:23 PM   #39
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Could you assign a 1 to 10 rating of those manufacturers to see where you think they stand in relation to each other?
That's a tough one, this is undeniably quite subjective, but here goes.

Hinckley - 10
MJM - 10
Sabre/Sabreline - 8
Bruckmann - 8
Back Cove - 6

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Old 02-24-2017, 03:55 PM   #40
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That's a tough one, this is undeniably quite subjective, but here goes.

Hinckley - 10
MJM - 10
Sabre/Sabreline - 8
Bruckmann - 8
Back Cove - 6

Interesting. You grade on a higher curve than I do. I can't grade MJMor Bruckman, but I'd give Hinckley and 8, Saber a 7, Back Cove a 6.

I'll tell you something that I think pushes Hinckely up a grade for East Coast buyers is all their service centers.
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