Broker accountability

[Choices]

If he won't let you read the records, walk.

Otherwise your making an educated guy call.

 

[Choices]

I would definitely have a buyer's broker. He can access info I can't, and it costs me nothing.

A good one will bring you deals.
They are more in tune with the industry than me.

This is a cultivated relationship. He is a salesman, and I go in with eyes open. Hopefully quickly we can come to an understanding of what I want. He gate first crack when I sell.

 

[slowgoesit]

I agree that if he can't or won't provide written documentation of maintenance, with logs, then walk. Who knows if the oil was EVER changed? How long has he owned it? What other maintenance was never accomplished? Zincs? What about coolant? Transmission oil? Batteries replaced?

Tell the broker the reason why you are walking: Boat was misrepresented, Owner claims to have documentation as to hours, but refuses to let buyer see them . . .

Just curious, what exactly was wrong with the fluid samples? High copper? High lead? Sodium in samples? What was done between the first sample and the 2nd sample? Drain, flush, run engine for X hours (by clock) and resample? Or just resample?

Lots of questions, and it sounds like you aren't getting answers

Enough said.

 

[AlanT]

Some clarification. this is a 100k plus boat. The meters are reading 976 and 945. The owner supposedly has a log of the hours since his ownership but is not willing to hand over the log. I asked what were the number of hours listed on the survey done by the current owner when he purchased the boat and was told the hours were the same, 976 and 945. This obviously indicates that the the meters have been inoperable for quite some time. Even if the current owner is honest/correct in his 200 hour usage during his ownership, it is still unknown how many hours were on it prior to his purchase. The boat is clean, good looking and one of the few boats my wife and I could agree on. I don't expect the broker to point out issues with the boat, but knowing that the hour meter has not been working for quite some time seems like a point that would be passed on to potential buyers

You have had lots of warning signs on this purchase, but the one that stands out to me is that the seller will not share his log!!!!

That is a clear sign to me to walk away. There is clearly something or somethings there he does not want you to see. It is so obvious that I can't comprehend wanting to proceed at that point. Facts: He kept a log. Fact: It recorded issues with the boat. Fact: He refuses to share that information with you. Run, do not walk away from this person/boat/deal.

If you are unaware, the vast majority of participants on this site keep accurate logs, engine hours, issues, repairs, conundrums and resolutions. There is nothing wrong with a boat that has issues resolved. They ALL do. If the seller won't share his log there is something seriously wrong with the boat IMO.

 

[mvweebles]

Hour meter is one of a hundred data points. Most brokers I've met are honest, forthright, and know that every buyer is someday a seller. But still, buyer should always have your own team of advisors including a competent mechanic who can objectively evaluate the condition of running gear.

Feeling betrayed by a broker is naive not because they are dishonest, but because they don't have any better information than the buyer does. That's why the buyer hires advisors .

Peter

 

[ksanders]

The whole idea of a maintenance log is to document the service history of the boat.

This is done in some part for the current owner to refer back to, another reason for the logs is in case the boat goes up for sale, or if they are needed for a insurance claim.

I personally would be hard pressed to buy any boat that does not have at bare minimum the current owners maintenance logs.

 

[ksanders]

Hour meter is one of a hundred data points. Most brokers I've met are honest, forthright, and know that every buyer is someday a seller. But still, buyer should always have your own team of advisors including a competent mechanic who can objectively evaluate the condition of running gear.

Feeling betrayed by a broker is naive not because they are dishonest, but because they don't have any better information than the buyer does. That's why the buyer hires advisors .

Peter

People need to read this post!!!

The broker only knows what the seller tells them, and the seller will by their very nature try to not tell anything that is derogatory to a potential sale.

 

[ksanders]

Wile I am a big supporter of using a buyer’s broker, I would like to point a few things out. The brokers I trust provide a detailed service. This level of service requires time and effort. They need to make a living. It doesn’t matter if it’s a $25,000 boat or a $500,000 boat, it’s the same amount of work. My guys can’t make a living representing a client who is buying a sub $100,000 boat. If you are in the market for a sub $100,000 boat it might be a challenge to find a good buyers broker. Things are not much different on the selling side. I have a long time acquaintance who sells $50,000 boats. He can’t afford to spend much effort on a sale and needs to push volume to make a living. I’ve suggested that he should try to do fewer deals but better quality deals, he just isn’t that good at the job and he is forever stuck pushing volume to earn a living. Sadly, he is more the norm.

This is a recurring theme her on TF

Buyer is unhappy with broker who will not work their ass off for half of a $5,000 commission on the sale of a a 40 year old boat that is not going to pass survey anyway.

 

[BruceK]

The owners refusal to provide logs to clarify an area which needs clarifying is a bright red flag. Were it likely to assist with the sale proceeding to completion they would surely be provided, so the inference has to be that they would not help support the sale. Add that to the fact they were broken for who knows how long before the seller bought, you just don`t know enough about the boat. Hours relate to all aspects of the boat, not just engines, you are buying the unused capacity of the boat.
I would walk, you need to look at your Agreement how that happens, you might need advice. I wonder if taking that path might bring the seller to rethink his position, though I`m not sure that is enough.

 

[Yachtman]

I would imagine that the agreement states something to the affect that the purchase is subject to the various surveys to the ‘satisfaction of the buyer’, who has within a certain time to either accept or walk with all monies to be returned except for any that incurred due to ………., etc, etc, etc.

 

[Tom.B]

Buyer is unhappy with broker who will not work their ass off for half of a $5,000 commission on the sale of a a 40 year old boat that is not going to pass survey anyway.


The broker only knows what the seller tells them, and the seller will by their very nature try to not tell anything that is derogatory to a potential sale.

^^This is correct.

I'll say this. I only check my hour meters when we fill up with fuel. In our case, that is pretty often. In our old trawler, I could go an entire season without fueling and could easily get 200 hours or more before realizing the meter had failed. This is tricky though. Why won't the seller let you verify that by showing you the logs? Is there something a buyer could learn from the logs (other than the hours) that could be a deal breaker of have the buyer want to renegotiate? Maybe? I don't know.

 

[Andrewc]

My question is still what is the broker's responsibility when he/she lists a boat? The broker I just worked with KNOWS that the hours listed on the meters are not accurate, but the boat is still listed with those hours on the add. Does a buyer have to specifically ask about the hour meters working to find that information? I understand that there are disclaimers in the adds, but the listing of hours that are known to be inaccurate seems fraudulent.

 

[mvweebles]

My question is still what is the broker's responsibility when he/she lists a boat? The broker I just worked with KNOWS that the hours listed on the meters are not accurate, but the boat is still listed with those hours on the add. Does a buyer have to specifically ask about the hour meters working to find that information? I understand that there are disclaimers in the adds, but the listing of hours that are known to be inaccurate seems fraudulent.

From a practical perspective, failure to clean-up something like this is sloppy salesmanship. As you can tell by your reaction, this destabilized the deal - perhaps tanked it altogether. A seasoned professional would recognize and correct it ASAP. There are dozens of ways a boat deal falls apart and there's no need to add another reason to the heap.

But the OP's question is more legal in nature. I'm not a lawyer but negotiating contracts has been a large part of my work for the last 20-years. First and foremost, the broker - unless specifically contracted, has no fiduciary obligation to the buyer. They may abide by a canon of ethics or a personal moral compass, but from a legal perspective, the broker does not have a fiduciary relationship to protect the buyer's interests.

Legally, this comes down to two items: Standard of Care; and Materiality. Standard of Care ranges from ordinary care (what would a person off the street do in the same situation?) up to fiduciary. Mixed-in are legal definitions of how much effort must the broker make to make a correction - reasonable efforts, extraordinary efforts, commercially reasonable efforts, etc. are all standards that have legal meaning (albeit a bit murky). Must the broker place their business at risk to solve a problem?

Materiality. Is the problem material? If this were an automobile where inaccurate mileage often carries specific legal consequences, would be a very material defect. But as others have noted on this thread, missing engine hours on a boat is arguably not a material gap. Should it be? Perhaps, but the devices that measure engine hours are far from specific and reliable.

In my opinion, the broker is definitely sloppy. But is his/her failure to correct the information actionable? Not really - his/her level of responsibility is low (ordinary care at best) and the materiality threshold is also low. From a legal perspective, he has minimal actionable obligation.

In short, being a lousy salesperson is not illegal.

Peter

 

[Seevee]

Peter,


Excellent post, and perhaps something to think about when dealing with brokers/sellers.


True, the broker works for who hired them, in this case, the seller. Short of fraud, they really don't have to provide much to the buyer. Now if they intentionally misrepresent and lie about it, that gets on to the fraud issue, but most likely hard to prove.


Overall, I could argue strongly, if one is not experienced in doing his own due diligence, then hire someone you trust to help. Personally, I could argue you get a LOT more value from a surveyors or just a good mechanic and electrician.

 

[twistedtree]

My question is still what is the broker's responsibility when he/she lists a boat? The broker I just worked with KNOWS that the hours listed on the meters are not accurate, but the boat is still listed with those hours on the add. Does a buyer have to specifically ask about the hour meters working to find that information? I understand that there are disclaimers in the adds, but the listing of hours that are known to be inaccurate seems fraudulent.

It's unethical at a minimum, but in light of the disclaimers, probably not fraudulent. The disclaimer basically says that what's in the listing might be right and it might be wrong.


Speculating, my guess is that the ad is written intentionally with hopes that it won't be noticed, as you almost didn't notice it. And if he gets called out on it, all he needs to do is say "oops, I thought I told you that", or "oh, I didn't know that".


Their unwillingness to share records I agree is a red flag. Plus, what are the chances that both hour meters just happened to fail? Pretty darn low, so most likely intentionally disabled. And you said the hour on a previous owner record showed the same hours, so the meters were disabled by the previous owner. There is a story behind it, and nobody what's to tell it. And based on your marginal oil sample, I'm guessing it's not a good story.


The bright side is that you found it now and aren't stuck with a boat that you will some day have to sell hoping nobody notices that the hour meters don't work.....

 

[Seevee]

We see this unethical conduct in a LOT of brokers, boats, houses, cars, and planes. And boats are some of the worst because most of them are not regulated, and even the regulated ones are not good.



Over the last many years, I've purchased many houses, boats and planes. (just under 200). And for the most part, seems like about 20% of brokers are good people, and 5% are excellent. SO MANY are there only for their own benefit and will take it regardless of ethics.



Yes, I still use brokers, but only when they can provide an honest service that I can't do, and I always pre-qualify them.



It's too bad, but that's the way it is.

 

[mvweebles]

We see this unethical conduct in a LOT of brokers, boats, houses, cars, and planes. And boats are some of the worst because most of them are not regulated, and even the regulated ones are not good.



Over the last many years, I've purchased many houses, boats and planes. (just under 200). And for the most part, seems like about 20% of brokers are good people, and 5% are excellent. SO MANY are there only for their own benefit and will take it regardless of ethics.



Yes, I still use brokers, but only when they can provide an honest service that I can't do, and I always pre-qualify them.



It's too bad, but that's the way it is.

I think this is a normal trend, not specific to brokers or sales people. The semi-famous business book "Good to Great" by Colins et al surmises that around 5% of the companies are truly exceptional and look forward, not sideways or behind them for their competition. Thus, they manage to break away and differentiate themselves from competitors. These companies know their value, their relationship with their customers, and they define their own destiny. Their employees understand their role in the company's success. The rest of the companies are some flavor of average or worse. Many brokers I've met know surprisingly little about boats. They sort of fell into the business via passion, not experience. Many boat builders too.

You will not hear me deride brokers beyond normal trends such as these. I've met a few shady brokers, but I've met a few shady people in all walks of business too. Mostly, lackluster employees are simply unmotivated, distracted, or inexperienced. I do not see brokers any different than the rest of the world. I am constantly disappointed by threads that portray boat brokers as universally nefarious. I think buyers expectation of a broker is misplaced and expect some sort of vested relationship.

Someone up-thread said a brokers role is a a facilitator. That's about right. An introduction. Anyone who's been setup on a date by a friend who was sure they'd hit home run in the match knows that while intention may be good, knowledge may be lacking.

Peter

 

[BruceK]

...

Someone up-thread said a brokers role is a a facilitator. That's about right. An introduction. Anyone who's been setup on a date by a friend who was sure they'd hit home run in the match knows that while intention may be good, knowledge may be lacking.

Peter

Surely a broker is the Owners Agent. With actual and ostensible authority to bind the owner (his Principal). A bad one could get an owner into a heap of trouble.

 

[mvweebles]

Surely a broker is the Owners Agent. With actual and ostensible authority to bind the owner (his Principal). A bad one could get an owner into a heap of trouble.

Unless a power of attorney has been agreed, a broker has no legal authority to bind a party (seller) to a transaction without resulting to fraudulent methods and thus crossing the line from civil/tort to criminal/felony.

The OP wanted to know if the brokers action of not correcting engine hours after it was clearly known they were inaccurate is actionable - a civil action at worst (and unlikely at tjat). As someone upthread mentioned, brokers are licensed in CA and FL. A complaint to the licensure board is possible though unlikely to result in enforcement unless the broker has a history of other complaints. There are also professional certification guilds for brokers where a complaint can be lodged if the broker is a member.

I feel the OPs frustration. But I just don't think the juice of revenge is worth the squeeze in this case.

Peter

 

[RickyD]

I'll add to this in a couple ways:

My broker who sold me this boat was very much like a friend. He worked hard for his commission. The first boat I offered on and did a survey had excessive blow by filling the engine room with smoke. I seemed to be the only one concerned. My broker said "just run them and they'll be fine". I backed out of the sale when the owner did not take my price reduction.

The starboard engine on my new boat had been rebuilt and the "on engine" hour meter reset to 0. It had 103 hours on it when I bought her. The hour meters in the fly bridge remained at their original hours and the port engine showed about 100 hour more than the stb. All that makes sense.

I keep a maintenance log for just about everything using a spreadsheet and backed up to the cloud. I record engine and genset hours for all normal maintenance. Oil, zincs, fuel, battery water, and more.

 

[Seevee]

Just seems like there are some professions that just have more than their fair share of unethical characters, and brokerage is right in that department.



And, we see it in all forms of brokerage... cars, boats, real estate, etc. there's a reason they have such a bad reputation. They deserve it. Seems like 98% of them just make it bad for the rest of them.


You find similar traits where someone stands to make a buck and if they stretch the truth a bit, no one is the wiser.



You really don't see this in a lot of other professions. Your grocer, Home Depot, Dentist or doctor, and your school teachers are examples. Even the guys you buy your marine radios from and your Bimini installers have a much better reputation.



So, it's prudent to find good ones, if one is going to use them... and yes, they are out there. Also, I could argue to back things up with mechanics and electricians and surveyors.

 

[Nancy and Bud]

Sitting in the bleachers watching this thread.

I would hope that by now, the OP has had enough experienced owners tell him to run away that he does.

Reading between the lines, this boat has a strong attraction to he and his wife. Sometimes when that happens, the buyer becomes so emotionally invested that they are blind to the facts.

Interested in seeing how it all shakes out.

 

[OldDan1943]

IMO my feeble and failing mind, it matters not if it is a buyer's broker or a seller's broker. They are both facilitators. It is up to the buyer to ask questions or perform his or her due diligence.

We get the question time and time again, "What type of boat should I buy?" At best, our answers are meant only for guidance. This leaves the final decision up to the buyer and he/she/they must live with their decision.
I hope a buyer never tries to blame their decision on us.

 

[Captankirk]

When I bought my boat the hour meters for each engine were approximately 63 hours different. When I asked why, I was told that the stbd engine meter ran faster than the port. Not sure how they figured that out (maybe the stbd engine was right and the port ran slower). Not a big deal, since there was only 700 hours on the engines on a 11 year old boat. Told me the boat was not used much, and it's a 9% error. which one was right?

After having the boat for 5 years, there is still a 9% difference in the two engines. Which one is right? I have no idea. They are Cummins diesels. Won't think about repowering for another 90,000 hours or so.

I'd be more concerned about the oil analysis than the hours on the engines, which in my case both came back spotless.

Maybe get a copy of the owner's log, and if he doesn't have one, that's another red flag!!

 

[BandB]

I hope a buyer never tries to blame their decision on us.

Wifey B: They do. Just not to our faces here, but I've heard people say things like "never should have listened to the people online" and I know one person who blamed their unhappy purchase on TF. Yet, every single problem they had was one I've seen discussed here by owners of the same brand. Just the owners here still talked about what they liked about the boat and the buyer in question never got beyond being upset to see the positives. Whether broker or forum or anything else, just sometimes people don't want to take ownership of their own decisions.

It's like the "where should I live" question. How the ^%##$ would I know where you should live? I know where I love living. I also know places people love living and I'd not like simply because of climate but then if everyone followed to my desired climate the world would be crowded into a third of the space.

 

[GB36_OuttaHere]

Well, I got a little giggle when i came across this post. It amazes me what a small world it is, and amazes me even more how quickly people assume malicious intent.

Instead of a grand scheme to misrepresent the boat by 200 hours, is it possible the owner is pushing 80, and is kept busy caring for his ailing wife and their 15 acre waterfront home? That maybe he just isn't overly technical, and broken hour meters don't bother him. He's old school, still doesn't trust GPS and keeps a log and dead reckons everywhere he goes. Maybe he's even embracing his own limitations and arranged for a skipper to take the OP out on both sea trials.

I delivered / crewed / helmed Third Time Around down from Maryland when my parents purchased her. My Dad was going to hire a delivery Captain, since he had spent the last 50 years on sailboats, and just wasn't comfortable with this yacht. It took some convincing that his "boy" was capable of skippering her. It was a great trip. We cruised down the Chesapeake at 10-15 knots. Mainly to enjoy the voyage, but also because he is a bit on the frugal side when it comes to feeding those two Cummins. He does, however, occasionally "let them breath". And what a rush it is. Makes me hate my little Lehmans. My favorite comment is "Hey Dad, the fuel flow meter is moving faster than the knot meter". She doesn't have a fuel flow meter, but it's still funny.. My mother began to decline shortly after this trip. It is one my favorite memories.

I know he has the boat deeply discounted to the OP. I can't speak to the survey findings. I can say, and most of you would agree, that my Grand Banks "to do list" seems to add an item every time I check one off. It's like she knows. I decide what is urgent, needs to be addressed soon-ish, and what i can just live with until...

I am very familiar with this boat, and would not hesitate to load her up and take off on the Great Loop next week. If i didn't have my Grand Banks, I'd own her by now. I mean, she has a washer and Dryer!! Are you kidding me??

Cheers,

SK

 

[mncruiser]

Entertaining discussion for sure. Lots of negative experiences, I'll try and simply describe my recent purchase experience using a buyer's broker....and the selling broker. Simplified? Wonderful.

The detail? 2001 Mainship 390 about 10 hours drive or a plane ride away. On the advice of many here, I worked with a buyer's broker who I knew here, he had the backing of a big name brokerage and the know how for all the details. And he likes the same kind of boats I do. Nearly every other broker I called, when I said "Looking for a freshwater only Mainship or similar single diesel in good shape" said YOU'LL NEVER FIND IT. This guy said, it will be hard, but you must be ready to move quickly.

Well I stumbled on it, (YachtWorld) and with his help and probably beating 10 people here on TF here who also wanted it, negotiated a deal with the outs we needed.

My broker was up front about not being able to travel with me for his part of a <150k boat, I understood his expectations and he mine.

Key point...mentioned by many here: You've got to be invested in the details, nobody will know or care as much as you about the boat, especially something 20 years old. Take ownership of stuff. Ask for help here and from your broker.

I also became close with the selling broker. Initially he was a little unsure, but when he figured out I was doing all the hard stuff and just had some questions that I needed to answer, he became my best friend. The sale was a bit sensitive, as the owner had passed away and the surviving wife was selling, this was all recent back in April. I made extra efforts to prove to them that I was a fair and honest guy, in this case I wanted to treat the seller like I would want someone to treat my wife if she ever had to sell my boat when I'm gone. I won't be ripped off, but I can be kind.

There are many more details, but I got every record they had, as well as he called in favors to other places that had done work on the boat to get their records. I had a great picture of how it was maintained. Survey passed with the usual safety things, but nothing major. Sea trial was good but exposed a bad raw water pump and a future engine circ pump was probably needed. This is where it gets interesting. At this point I was going to cover both of them....as many other aspects of the boat made me feel like I was getting a really solid deal. New fuel tanks installed 2014 (not documented)....lots of Yanmar work done.. newer dink and outboard.....and so many spare parts. I bet I got $2000 in spare parts with this boat! And I just found another racor last trip. Anyway, I offered to pay for it all.

The seller and selling broker insisted otherwise, paid for 1/2 the parts, and a smoking deal on next day installation of all the parts. This was before a holiday weekend in May, and the marina was a mess with angry impatient boaters everywhere. I was kind and patient, and believe that was a huge part in all this. They went above and beyond to help me out, and I tried to do the same for them.

I had a great experience. But I also took responsibility for a lot of things, which in this type of boat, a fairly low purchase price, really is what you have to do. Expecting any broker to do it all for you is your first mistake, especially on a used boat THAT WILL need work no matter how well maintained it is.

I'm sure there are bad ones out there. I found a few good ones. I'd be happy to refer either of them if you PM me. Or I'd be happy to post them here if it's ok.

MNCruiser

 

[mvweebles]

Entertaining discussion for sure. Lots of negative experiences, I'll try and simply describe my recent purchase experience using a buyer's broker....and the selling broker. Simplified? Wonderful.

The detail? 2001 Mainship 390 about 10 hours drive or a plane ride away. On the advice of many here, I worked with a buyer's broker who I knew here, he had the backing of a big name brokerage and the know how for all the details. And he likes the same kind of boats I do. Nearly every other broker I called, when I said "Looking for a freshwater only Mainship or similar single diesel in good shape" said YOU'LL NEVER FIND IT. This guy said, it will be hard, but you must be ready to move quickly.

Well I stumbled on it, (YachtWorld) and with his help and probably beating 10 people here on TF here who also wanted it, negotiated a deal with the outs we needed.

My broker was up front about not being able to travel with me for his part of a <150k boat, I understood his expectations and he mine.

Key point...mentioned by many here: You've got to be invested in the details, nobody will know or care as much as you about the boat, especially something 20 years old. Take ownership of stuff. Ask for help here and from your broker.

I also became close with the selling broker. Initially he was a little unsure, but when he figured out I was doing all the hard stuff and just had some questions that I needed to answer, he became my best friend. The sale was a bit sensitive, as the owner had passed away and the surviving wife was selling, this was all recent back in April. I made extra efforts to prove to them that I was a fair and honest guy, in this case I wanted to treat the seller like I would want someone to treat my wife if she ever had to sell my boat when I'm gone. I won't be ripped off, but I can be kind.

There are many more details, but I got every record they had, as well as he called in favors to other places that had done work on the boat to get their records. I had a great picture of how it was maintained. Survey passed with the usual safety things, but nothing major. Sea trial was good but exposed a bad raw water pump and a future engine circ pump was probably needed. This is where it gets interesting. At this point I was going to cover both of them....as many other aspects of the boat made me feel like I was getting a really solid deal. New fuel tanks installed 2014 (not documented)....lots of Yanmar work done.. newer dink and outboard.....and so many spare parts. I bet I got $2000 in spare parts with this boat! And I just found another racor last trip. Anyway, I offered to pay for it all.

The seller and selling broker insisted otherwise, paid for 1/2 the parts, and a smoking deal on next day installation of all the parts. This was before a holiday weekend in May, and the marina was a mess with angry impatient boaters everywhere. I was kind and patient, and believe that was a huge part in all this. They went above and beyond to help me out, and I tried to do the same for them.

I had a great experience. But I also took responsibility for a lot of things, which in this type of boat, a fairly low purchase price, really is what you have to do. Expecting any broker to do it all for you is your first mistake, especially on a used boat THAT WILL need work no matter how well maintained it is.

I'm sure there are bad ones out there. I found a few good ones. I'd be happy to refer either of them if you PM me. Or I'd be happy to post them here if it's ok.

MNCruiser

Thanks for posting this. There are way too many posts either bashing brokers as a crooked lot, or suggesting they don't earn their fee because anyone can search YW. There are a dozen ways a boat deal can fall apart. A knowledgeable and experienced broker can manage the process so that both the buyer and seller can celebrate the two best days of boat ownership simultaneously. Call me an optimist on this one - me thinks it happens more often than the naysayers would have me believe.....

Peter