Bow Thruster vs Stern Thruster

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psneeld said:
Not all twins walk sideways, especially not with wind or current from certain directions.

Some will, some won't, sometimes or not at all.
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Yeah, our current ride -- no thrusters -- doesn't walk sideways all that well.

It is what it is... and I can get it "over there" anyway, walking or not..

-Chris
 
Too much emphasis on "walking" the boat whole boat side ways.

Easier and faster to get the bow in first and use prop walk to bring the stern alongside dock.
 
syjos said:
Too much emphasis on "walking" the boat whole boat side ways.

Easier and faster to get the bow in first and use prop walk to bring the stern alongside dock.
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And usually once we get a spring line on somewhere (anywhere), we're docked... and the rest is just clean-up.

-Chris
 
caltexflanc said:
That's interesting Rich, because I, definitely not the most adept person in the world, have walked a GB 46 classic (w/BT), a GB 49 Classic and a GB 49MY sideways, or pretty much so. So the smaller GBs are different I guess? Puzzling. Dumb luck on my part? That's always a possibility.
By the way, I'll add a Mainship 430, Mainship 390, a Tollycraft 32 and a Hatteras 56MY (w/BT, and a deep keel) to the list. Wind and current conditions certainly affect the degree of difficulty to be sure. So,as I have a lot of respect for you between the years at T&T and now here, what did you see as the challenges?
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I'm not sure exactly what you are asking about in regard to challenges I saw IRT walking vessels, but the biggest challenges I ever saw in ship handling in general were a single screw ammunition ship and the 205-foot long 1600-ton ocean towing and salvage ship I commanded. Neither had any sort of thrusters. Like Dirt Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations." Those two ships required that I drastically reign in my destroyer habits and "go with the flow" of the ship rather than bend it to my will with engine/rudder combinations.
 
The best "walker" I ever drove was a 105-foot crew boat I delivered from New Jersey to San Diego. It had four 12V92TAs driving four screws, inboards turning inward and outboard turning outward like a typical twin screw rec vessel. From a standing start, the boat would walk directly sideways regardless of wind and current. To walk to port, I placed the inboards port astern and stbd ahead with rudder hard astarboard. The scary part was that to make this work the inboard throttles were firewalled creating quite a lot of noise. The vessel immediately cleared the pier and the vessels ahead and astern. The two wing engines were then used in the conventional "twist" mode to adjust the angle of the vessel. This was a maneuver I was taught in a very congested area and would have preferred to experiment with in open waters gradually working my way into more congested waters. The consequences of losing an inboard during this maneuver could have been disastrous.
 
syjos said:
Too much emphasis on "walking" the boat whole boat side ways.

Easier and faster to get the bow in first and use prop walk to bring the stern alongside dock.
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Or a spring line, to me the best solution of all.

Some folks have difficulty walking the boat due to shyness about using bursts of throttle, and of turning the helm over.
 
We use spring lines pulling out of a tight sidetie dock but coming in, we avoid it.

Most helpers on the dock have no idea how to use a spring line. My wife used to ask helpers on the dock to tie the spring down without success. Most will not listen to her request and simply try to yank the boat in with the spring which screws up my approach. Others don't tie it properly, short tie it or too much line.

My wife will calmly stand at the stern, with headset communication with me, and tell helpers on the dock insisting she throw them a line that she will hand them a line when I give her the OK.

It takes me a while, but I do work the stern in with prop walk and rudder. My wife informs the dock helpers that we may take a while to get docked so that the impatient ones can leave.

Sometimes with the wind or current blowing the bow off, I get the stern to the dock, and my wife will get on the dock and tie a spring down to get the bow in.

When I'm by myself, with strong wind or current, I will accept assistance from helpers on the dock and suffer the consequences. Or find a dock where the wind or current will push me to the dock.
 
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syjos said:
We use spring lines pulling out of a tight sidetie dock but coming in, we avoid it.

Most helpers on the dock have no idea how to use a spring line. My wife used to ask helpers on the dock to tie the spring down without success. Most will not listen to her request and simply try to yank the boat in with the spring which screws up my approach. Others don't tie it properly, short tie it or too much line.

My wife will calmly stand at the stern, with headset communication with me, and tell helpers on the dock insisting she throw them a line that she will hand them a line when I give her the OK.

It takes me a while, but I do work the stern in with prop walk and rudder. My wife informs the dock helpers that we may take a while to get docked so that the impatient ones can leave.
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Yes. Sadly most dock "helpers" are dock "hinderers". Just secure the damn line anywhere and I or my first mate can adjust.
And don't grab my railings and yank. Ever.
 
Although I haven't needed to make use of spring lines often in my twin/no thrusters, on several occasions I found it helpful to toss a line to dock and then have my friend use the capstan to warp the bow in. This was to augment the use of my engines and maintain better control in heavy cross winds.

On a large boat I can definitely see the advantage of installing a heavy duty, strong vertical capstan up in the nose.
 
Inboard turning screws are always going to enhance ability to "walk" and also have a strong "back". Lots of ship docking tugs were built this way before Tractor drives became popular. Not to say outboard turning wheels can't be walked.
A couple of very experienced tug captains that I had the pleasure of learning from were at a simulator center for training. At the end of the training, the instructor got talking about hull shape and "Walking". A navy ship came up as a topic and the instructor assured these two that this ship wouldn't and couldn't walk... They asked if they could try... Well they got it walking, and the instructor dismissed it... thats not real life....After assuring them, these scenarios were true, real life stuff. I wish I could remember the ship class
 
I'm going out on a limb here but see the single screw guys take wind and current more serious than their twin screw counterparts. A afternoon at a marina will show many peeps trying to out do mother nature because they have perceived more maneuverability because of twins... look at any fairtide docking situation...gets ugly, with usually the wife/deckhand getting yelled at. Spring line out like they were taught but can't understand why their stern is coming around despite "twin screwing"..
 
syjos said:
We use spring lines pulling out of a tight sidetie dock but coming in, we avoid it.

Most helpers on the dock have no idea how to use a spring line. My wife used to ask helpers on the dock to tie the spring down without success. Most will not listen to her request and simply try to yank the boat in with the spring which screws up my approach. Others don't tie it properly, short tie it or too much line.

My wife will calmly stand at the stern, with headset communication with me, and tell helpers on the dock insisting she throw them a line that she will hand them a line when I give her the OK.

It takes me a while, but I do work the stern in with prop walk and rudder. My wife informs the dock helpers that we may take a while to get docked so that the impatient ones can leave.

Sometimes with the wind or current blowing the bow off, I get the stern to the dock, and my wife will get on the dock and tie a spring down to get the bow in.

When I'm by myself, with strong wind or current, I will accept assistance from helpers on the dock and suffer the consequences. Or find a dock where the wind or current will push me to the dock.
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The only time I can think of needing helpers on the dock is if you are dealing with bull rails and whatever gizmo you have to snag them isn't working for you.
Cleats and pilings are pretty easy with minimal rodeo skills like ours. As with most things, practice is necessary.

As for dock helpers, when using them, you have to be very assertive in telling them exactly what to do, down to pointing at the exact spot you want the line secured. Even if they are very experienced boaters, who can be the most dangerous because they will do their own thing, not yours. We learned that lesson too many times.
 
Well I’ve had 130 posts on the Trawler Forum which is interesting; over two dozen on the Bayliner Owners Forum. Drew, the live aboard owner of a 4788 in Tacoma WA and I will do our empirical testing/adult play thing next week. All results are of course filtered thru owners eyes and the fact that we have boats with twin engines, soft chines, moderate windage, relatively small rudders, minimal keel, and moderate (to be generous) forefoot. Let the games begin!

Ok - I agree with many of the posts, spring lines rock! Give me a spring line with no help from the warfinger after its set and I’m good. But the topic of discussion is whether or not a stern thruster alone is valuable enough to substitute for a more expensive bow thruster installation. Onward!
 
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Beaverlake said:
Well I’ve had 130 posts on the Trawler Forum which is interesting; over two dozen on the Bayliner Owners Forum. Drew, the live aboard owner of a 4788 in Tacoma WA and I will do our empirical testing/adult play thing next week. All results are of course filtered thru owners eyes and the fact that we have boats with twin engines, soft chines, moderate windage, relatively small rudders, minimal keel, and moderate (to be generous) forefoot. Let the games begin!

Ok - I agree with many of the posts, spring lines rock! Give me a spring line with no help from the warfinger after its set and I’m good. But the topic of discussion is whether or not a stern thruster alone is valuable enough to substitute for a more expensive bow thruster installation. Onward!
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I understand exactly what you are asking. Spring lines and walking the boat have nothing to do with your repeatedly asked question. In my opinion a stern thruster is worth it to me without having a bow thruster and having twin engines.

Stick on topic and answer the question. Walking ships has nothing to do with his question nor does spring lines.
 
Comodave said:
I understand exactly what you are asking. Spring lines and walking the boat have nothing to do with your repeatedly asked question. In my opinion a stern thruster is worth it to me without having a bow thruster and having twin engines.

Stick on topic and answer the question. Walking ships has nothing to do with his question nor does spring lines.
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Good point. My apologies. I am one of the off topic posters with writing of walking a boat. Guys like you are appreciated to stay on topic of the thread starter.
 
You pose a question on any forum, you'll get a variety of on topic and off topic answers. Can not avoid the off topic answers, which sometimes become more interesting and informative than the original question.

It would be no fun for us otherwise. Especially for subjects with no definitive answer.

OP's job is to filter the answers.
 
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Beaverlake said:
But the topic of discussion is whether or not a stern thruster alone is valuable enough to substitute for a more expensive bow thruster installation. !
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"No it isn't!"

Does that answer your question?:blush:
 
Codger2 said:
"No it isn't!"

Does that answer your question?:blush:
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But, but, but, this is TF where topic drift if not downright abandonment IS WHAT WE DO. :whistling:
 
Codger2 said:
"No it isn't!"

Does that answer your question?:blush:
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Reminds me of a years’ ago phone call to my future ex. Her dad answered. I asked “Is Joanne there?” He said “yes” and promptly hung up.

In this case if one were to read my original post and subsequent repetition the question was in the context of value and the request was in the context of experience/examples.

Still -“No” is a perfectly correct response! Thanks for reminding me about the potential downfalls of closed-ended yes/no questions! (“So tell me, do you still beat your wife?” - Groucho Marx)
 
Considerations:

Without any thruster added.
Most any boat will be able to handle most maneuvering with practice and operator technic.

Bow thruster gives the best maneuvering advantage.

Stern thruster is less expensive with less advantage, but does make a difference in more difficult situations

Stern thruster is the most economical, thruster advantage.

No thruster, at all, is the the most economical, dependable and builds the most competent pilot.

Thrusters are like smart phones, vs land line. Smart phones offer more usable options, but a smart phone is not needed to make a phone call.

-If money is no issue, get a bow thruster.
-If money is an issue, get a stern thruster.

Thrusters are very nice.

My last 38’ twin diesel had NO thrusters. It was quite maneuverable, due to being a twin engine. Although a thruster would have been welcome and fun. A prior 32’ greatly benefited by a lower cost stern thruster. Bottom line is that thrusters are not needed, although they are a nice add on. Just don’t get in a situation where you depend on them. Murphy’s Law.
 
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Codger2 said:
"No it isn't!"

Does that answer your question?:blush:
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Well, I have to disagree. I can do anything with my stern thruster that a similar boat with a bow thruster can do.
I just have to approach the situation differently.
 
How much a boat walks transversely has a lot to do with the pitch of the screw(s). So two exact same boats with different screws will likely handle differently.

Amazing how different my boat maneuvers (particularly reversing) with a change of props.

I have a bow thruster. But as I have a RH prop and berth to Stbd (my helm and only pilothouse door is to Stbd), a stern thruster or LH screw would help me more than what I actually have.

I purchased the thruster second hand, but new in box, and installed it myself, so I have about a quarter of the normal associated cost.
 
Nickair said:
No thruster, at all, is the the most economical, dependable and builds the most competent pilot... Just don’t get in a situation where you depend on them. Murphy’s Law.
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Yeah, I get really lazy when I helm my buddy’s boat with thruster.
 
So I talked to Randy today - 12 Feb - (Randall?) at DockStar discussing applicability to my boat with a Seawise Davit system. During the conversation he said his experience was that 60 % of boaters prefer using their stern thruster, this surprised me and fed right into this thread.

I have had installed an exturn external bow thruster and felt it would be nice to have a stern thruster but I didn't want to pay the money I paid for my new one. I purchased the thruster, had it installed, two new batteries to run it and my windless, wiring, battery box, and electrical instrument to run it.

With Dockstar you only have to install the unit, there is no electrical to hook up. And installation looks pretty easy, so much so I could even do it. As others have noted, the thruster has its own internal lithium battery, suppose to be good for 10 minutes, but 5 minutes is more than enough. And it runs off of a bluetooth device so no need to run electrical wiring to the instrument panel.

I suggested I would only run it sometimes and he recommended I run it when I don't really need it to get used to how it works. He said not using the unit, then using it in a big wind, big current condition is not the time to figure it out. Kind of like radar.

And the price for the unit is $1895 American so now that I have done so much refitting my boat, that's like almost free.... lol.

So I thought I would mention the one negative which is also a positive. You don't leave the unit in the water, it comes up and is secured with a line. This means you have to put it down yourself (single handing) or have a mate put it down, easy enough to do. The positive is you will never have any growth on the unit and prop.
 
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rsn48 said:
So I talked to Randy today - 12 Feb - (Randall?) at DockStar discussing applicability to my boat with a Seawise Davit system. During the conversation he said his experience was that 60 % of boaters prefer using their stern thruster, this surprised me and fed right into this thread.

I have had installed an exturn external bow thruster and felt it would be nice to have a stern thruster but I didn't want to pay the money I paid for my new one. I purchased the thruster, had it installed, two new batteries to run it and my windless, wiring, battery box, and electrical instrument to run it.

With Dockstar you only have to install the unit, there is no electrical to hook up. And installation looks pretty easy, so much so I could even do it. As others have noted, the thruster has its own internal lithium battery, suppose to be good for 10 minutes, but 5 minutes is more than enough. And it runs off of a bluetooth device so no need to run electrical wiring to the instrument panel.

I suggested I would only run it sometimes and he recommended I run it when I don't really need it to get used to how it works. He said not using the unit, then using it in a big wind, big current condition is not the time to figure it out. Kind of like radar.

And the price for the unit is $1895 American so now that I have done so much refitting my boat, that's like almost free.... lol.

So I thought I would mention the one negative which is also a positive. You don't leave the unit in the water, it comes up and is secured with a line. This means you have to put it down yourself (single handing) or have a mate put it down, easy enough to do. The positive is you will never have any growth on the unit and prop.
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Call me skeptical about a stern thruster rep saying some large percentage of people prefer using a stern thruster. If you have a stern thruster, wouldn't you use it, making the percentage of people who prefer using one 100% of those having one? I dunno, maybe I am confused. I have no comment about the effectiveness of the Dockstar unit (or any other ST), and it may well be the best thing since sliced bread.
 
rgano said:
Call me skeptical about a stern thruster rep saying some large percentage of people prefer using a stern thruster.
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That's kinda' like shopping for a mattress.

Every mattress salesmen points to the mattress you chose and says "that's what I sleep on" or "that's our best selling mattress".
 
The thruster he sells can be used as either a stern or bow thruster.
 
Haven't yet found a single propeller and bow thruster wasn't adequate. ... Last time perfectly docked bow-in at the boatyard for repair without inoperative thruster but dying hydraulic steering.
 
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