Bow Damage during delivery

[mvweebles]

Key is “indiscriminate “. Same issue applies to anyone with a cellphone. The cellphone doesn’t even need to have GPS. Peter they can find out which side you dress on.

I agree with your intent totally. Especially given your car records your speed of travel and location. Your phone and your Alexa can record your conversations . Your keystrokes are potentially available. Big supporter of privacy given a somewhat libertarian slant to my thinking. Europeans and Brits seem to do a somewhat better job on this than us. With less chest thumping and more structural limitations to the invasion of privacy.

Go to London and try to find a place to piss on a wall without a camera watching.

Of course electronic surveillance can find out extremely intimate details about you, but cannot be done (legally) without a search warrant. There was a landmark case several years ago where an incredibly successful hacker was caught. He had been extremely careful and only used burner phones and hotspots. It took him a while of rotting in jail waiting for trial go figure out they caught him using highly specialized equipment designed for military use that carpets a small area (couple square blocks) for all cell calls and intercepts data streams. Highly illegal surveillance without a specific search warrant.

There's a difference between what can be done, and what can be done legally. Requiring a common citizen to broadcast a tracking signal for law enforcement without probable cause would stretch the boundaries. Although larger vessels are required to broadcast AIS, it is the vessel under surveillance, though obviously the vessels command would be backtracked in the event of an infraction.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Like other things, it may be insurance companies that require it or no insurance.

Once turned on, LE could legally use it or private companies might track and provide the info to insurance companies for profit.

Tech changes the way society thinks even if idividuals resist the change.

Google maps report speed traps, sounds a little like karma coming around.

 

[mvweebles]

I've only seen it once or twice in over 50 years of US boating, and those were on professionally crewed megayachts. They're more commonly used in Europe though. I don't have one, but should, they are required. Nobody cares till someone hits you, then it becomes your fault the other guy is an idiot. Guess I need to make one.

https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|135|2290132|2290133&id=33014

For around $10, you can have a collapsible one. I used to have an inflatable one (a black beach ball). I don't see them anymore. I guess they're a good idea if you anchor in unusual places. I've anchored in rivers and such.

Peter.

 

[Hippocampus]

I don’t know…. Boater going along in a apparent safe and lawful manner. Gets cut off causing him to judge whether to divert and decrease risk of injury to the other vessel and it’s occupants or not. He diverts and suffers damage. From available information he did the ethical thing. He gets stuck with a bill.
Have you ever been cut off after checking the fairway and doing the horn signal by some small outboard boat? Quick cut on the throttle, maybe some reverse and quick play with the thrusters to avoid collision with him and allision with anything else. Defer to your knowledge but seems to me I would not be thinking about colregs and appointing liability. I’d be thinking about safety of ALL people involved first then avoiding damages. That well may produce a discrepancy between the law and justice.

 

[Hippocampus]

Peter it seems we agree indiscriminate use is both unlawful and possibly a unconstitutional invasion of privacy. Wife has family actively working signal intelligence. My father worked army intelligence and OSS in the days of wild Bill ( and subsequently briefly for a 3 letter). Have had some minor exposure to the moral and ethical conflicts that may arise. Therefore believe the capability exists to obtain this information in a retrograde fashion after clearance by a suitable legal entity. Not real interested in becoming the next China.

Our black ball is two pieces that interlock. Unassembled lies flat and takes up little room. We used bungees and the Solent on the sail boat. Now use a thin piece of line between the flybridge and the Sampson post. It also makes you a better target on radar.

 

[psneeld]

I have been cut off thousands of times , many, many with a stern tow so had VERY limited options.

Managed to never hit anything ( probably for many reasons).

I wish people on this forum would stop misusing the word "safety" for everything unless they look at the big picture. Plenty to look at here, exvept the lack of facts.

We have ZERO idea of what really happened and ALL the variables that existed.

 

[mvweebles]

This time I'm with Psneeld - tough to really know what happened. The evil/cynical side of me (the little devil on right shoulder) reminds me pilot error or inattentiveness might be root cause - boat on A/P just hit something. Never really know. There are several possibilities- some don't involve another boat.

Back before long-haul truckers were required to take sleep breaks, there were a lot of late night accidents of truckers who "swerved to avoid hitting a deer."

Peter

 

[Grahambda]

$30k quoted

Unfortunately, after nearing the end of a 1,400-mile delivery, our new-to-us DF 44, driven by our delivery Captain, had to take action to avoid a collision with a small craft that cut across him, hit the bow on a metal marker and crunched the port bow taking out a couple of stanchions and ripping up around 6ft of teak top cap and along with some fibreglass and gel coat damage. The irony was it was his last 80-mile stretch on the way to home port in Tarpon Springs. Both Captain and we are needless to say gutted :-(

Now we have to find a good fibreglass repair shop, any recommendations? ideally in the Tampa area?

Now fighting with the insurance company, although it was the delivery Captain at the helm, we lose our 20% no claims and stays on our record for 5 years!

Well received one quote $30k :-( cleary, not the best time to look for a deal on boat repairs in Florida!

 

[guy with a boat]

This time I'm with Psneeld - tough to really know what happened. The evil/cynical side of me (the little devil on right shoulder) reminds me pilot error or inattentiveness might be root cause - boat on A/P just hit something. Never really know. There are several possibilities- some don't involve another boat.

Back before long-haul truckers were required to take sleep breaks, there were a lot of late night accidents of truckers who "swerved to avoid hitting a deer."

Peter

I have to say that this is the first thing that came to my mind. "Someone cut me off" has been used as an easy excuse for lots of mistakes.

 

[catalinajack]

Unfortunately, after nearing the end of a 1,400-mile delivery, our new-to-us DF 44, driven by our delivery Captain, had to take action to avoid a collision with a small craft that cut across him, hit the bow on a metal marker and crunched the port bow taking out a couple of stanchions and ripping up around 6ft of teak top cap and along with some fibreglass and gel coat damage. The irony was it was his last 80-mile stretch on the way to home port in Tarpon Springs. Both Captain and we are needless to say gutted :-(



Now we have to find a good fibreglass repair shop, any recommendations? ideally in the Tampa area?



Now fighting with the insurance company, although it was the delivery Captain at the helm, we lose our 20% no claims and stays on our record for 5 years!

Graham. So sorry to hear about your ill fortune.

 

[Hippocampus]

Most salient comment is we don’t know the details. So will back off on my rant. Just increasingly annoyed that the basic level of respect and concern for others seemed to be losing ground. Believe Aristotle said something similar quite some time ago about the generations that followed him so will stay optimistic with a smile on my face.

 

[psneeld]

Most salient comment is we don’t know the details. So will back off on my rant. Just increasingly annoyed that the basic level of respect and concern for others seemed to be losing ground. Believe Aristotle said something similar quite some time ago about the generations that followed him so will stay optimistic with a smile on my face.

OK, but who is who?

Who is disrespecting whom?

How is anyone disrespected over a bunch of posts of nothing more than electrons describing so little as to form a serious opinion of right or wrong or respect or lack of?

 

[Eli27]

OK, but who is who?

Who is disrespecting whom?

How is anyone disrespected over a bunch of posts of nothing more than electrons describing so little as to form a serious opinion of right or wrong or respect or lack of?

By only reading the OP and taking that post as 100% accurate which we obviously cant take, there is some frustration because of the situation.

Thats all.

Eli

 

[psneeld]

By only reading the OP and taking that post as 100% accurate which we obviously cant take, there is some frustration because of the situation.

Thats all.

Eli

OK, now I have to ask you to explain frustration in WHAT situation?

This post is just as vague as the last post I was trying to have explained.

Not that any of them really need to be explained, but fascinated by all this emotion over thin air.

 

[Eli27]

OK, now I have to ask you to explain frustration in WHAT situation?

This post is just as vague as the last post I was trying to have explained.

Not that any of them really need to be, but fascinated by all this emotion over thin air.

lol, i think you see something thats not there.

but then im blind as a bat so,,,,

Eli

 

[Delta Riverat]

And we have no proof that the Captain was telling the real story. Could have fallen asleep or been watching bikinis.

 

[psneeld]

And we have no proof that the Captain was telling the real story. Could have fallen asleep or been watching bikinis.

Doudt even a half a**ed delivery captain was that far off base,.....a simple misjudgement could have resulted in the consequences described.

That doesnt mean the other boat was totally or even partially at fault .....so many comments on the OP are based on thin air.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yup. Could have happened halfway through the trip. If the OP was not on deck, nobody really knows.

 

[BruceK]

Grahambda, commiserations for your situation. I hope it works out and the repairs are done well at a fair cost. Unfortunately your insurance record is affected.
In the circumstances some of the tangential posting seems regrettable, don`t let it make a bad situation worse.

 

[STB]

You might try Pitman's in Tarpon Springs. https://pitmanyachtservices.com/

 

[markpierce]

black balls, anyone?

 

[SoWhat]

Assuming Captain overnighted in Punta Gorda? 80 miles either side of Tarpon Springs is open water so presumably this delivery was run in daylight hours and boat was in protected anchorage at night. Guessing he departed using marked channel. Was OP on board or did captain provide his own crew?

Outbound tanker crowded me in a channel and I was surprised at how close I came to colliding with a can once. 4 knot ebb current threw me off more than I expected. There are some narrow channels in Boston Harbor, one called 'The Narrows' and it is heavily used by the fast ferries and whale watch boats. I usually hug the buoys and wakes can toss me over a few feet so it's not a place to be fiddling with the MFD.

So yea, I can see hitting a buoy if I am distracted by watching an approaching bowrider and a windshield post might obscure my view of a close buoy... Last second evasive action? Only for lobster pots marked by half sunk milk jugs.

(AIS has no purpose on clear days. Look out the window, don't stare at the MFD.)

 

[catalinajack]

Assuming Captain overnighted in Punta Gorda? 80 miles either side of Tarpon Springs is open water so presumably this delivery was run in daylight hours and boat was in protected anchorage at night. Guessing he departed using marked channel. Was OP on board or did captain provide his own crew?

Outbound tanker crowded me in a channel and I was surprised at how close I came to colliding with a can once. 4 knot ebb current threw me off more than I expected. There are some narrow channels in Boston Harbor, one called 'The Narrows' and it is heavily used by the fast ferries and whale watch boats. I usually hug the buoys and wakes can toss me over a few feet so it's not a place to be fiddling with the MFD.

So yea, I can see hitting a buoy if I am distracted by watching an approaching bowrider and a windshield post might obscure my view of a close buoy... Last second evasive action? Only for lobster pots marked by half sunk milk jugs.

(AIS has no purpose on clear days. Look out the window, don't stare at the MFD.)

I am not in favor of requiring all boats to have AIS but I think many commenters have looked at the suggestion from the standpoint of being able to see all vessels in the vicinity. I do think the original thought was about being able to identify the bad actor after the fact.

 

[Hippocampus]

From little known if the small boat did not create a dangerous situation this thread would not exist. Sounds disrespectful.
Repetitively go through NYC. AIS gives you intercept information and alarms you to vessels which maybe troublesome. Both in front and behind. Although we both visually scan and the brides job is to constantly doing that AIS is a excellent aid to navigation. Clear day or not. Totally disagree it’s only helpful when visibility is limited. Going through NYC at night there are green, red and white lights all over the place. Many on land and some of those moving. Without moonlight it can be confusing at times and take you a bit to sort out what you’re looking at. Similarly when a small boat is in front of a larger vessel or three or more boats are in close proximity. Usually you go through NYC to time the currents. Day/night/moon phase of less concern. I used NYC as it’s in recent memory but the same is true elsewhere. Places where density and speed of traffic is high enough neither vision nor radar are as quick as AIS to sort things out. This is especially true when there’s only one up on watch. Also think knowing the names of surrounding vessels aids VHF communication.
Believe MarineTraffic is useless for this function. Too much delay.

 

[catalinajack]

Unfortunately, after nearing the end of a 1,400-mile delivery, our new-to-us DF 44, driven by our delivery Captain, had to take action to avoid a collision with a small craft that cut across him, hit the bow on a metal marker and crunched the port bow taking out a couple of stanchions and ripping up around 6ft of teak top cap and along with some fibreglass and gel coat damage. The irony was it was his last 80-mile stretch on the way to home port in Tarpon Springs. Both Captain and we are needless to say gutted :-(



Now we have to find a good fibreglass repair shop, any recommendations? ideally in the Tampa area?



Now fighting with the insurance company, although it was the delivery Captain at the helm, we lose our 20% no claims and stays on our record for 5 years!

I'm curious, I think we are all curious, just what "metal marker" was hit? Being on the last 80-mile leg to Tarpon Springs, going south on the likely route from an anchorage or port, there are a number of markers (buoys). Those would be the Crystal River Lighted Buoy (#2), the Saint Martins Outer Shoal Lighted Buoy, the Anclote Anchorage North Entrance Buoy, Red #6, and Green #7, all of which are in open water. The Tarpon Springs entrance channel is far too narrow, no more than 200 feet wide, for any boat to be cutting across anyone's bow. I would think that the delivery captain would have recorded the exact location of the accident.

 

[psneeld]

From little known if the small boat did not create a dangerous situation this thread would not exist. Sounds disrespectful.
Repetitively go through NYC. AIS gives you intercept information and alarms you to vessels which maybe troublesome. Both in front and behind. Although we both visually scan and the brides job is to constantly doing that AIS is a excellent aid to navigation. Clear day or not. Totally disagree it’s only helpful when visibility is limited. Going through NYC at night there are green, red and white lights all over the place. Many on land and some of those moving. Without moonlight it can be confusing at times and take you a bit to sort out what you’re looking at. Similarly when a small boat is in front of a larger vessel or three or more boats are in close proximity. Usually you go through NYC to time the currents. Day/night/moon phase of less concern. I used NYC as it’s in recent memory but the same is true elsewhere. Places where density and speed of traffic is high enough neither vision nor radar are as quick as AIS to sort things out. This is especially true when there’s only one up on watch. Also think knowing the names of surrounding vessels aids VHF communication.
Believe MarineTraffic is useless for this function. Too much delay.

Absolutely the small boat might not been at or fully at fault (dangerous sotuation created) and the allision still occured.

Hapoens a LOT in my experience.

Both on the water and on roads ( where many boaters learn their driving skills which is a mistake).

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|135|2290132|2290133&id=33014

For around $10, you can have a collapsible one. I used to have an inflatable one (a black beach ball). I don't see them anymore. I guess they're a good idea if you anchor in unusual places. I've anchored in rivers and such.

Peter.

I have seen these on commercial fishing boats in Alaska. I have never seen them on recreational boats.

 

[rslifkin]

I have seen these on commercial fishing boats in Alaska. I have never seen them on recreational boats.

Here's an example of one on my (definitely recreational) boat.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Here's an example of one on my (definitely recreational) boat.

Thanks. Is this an east coast thing? I just don't see it on the west coast. I don't look for them either.

I understand its part of the rules, like 2 short blasts of your horn when backing out of a slip, a rule that is ignored by the general boating public.

Found this.

https://www.boatsnews.com/story/28786/is-the-mooring-ball-mandatory


For the OP. Hope you can find a repair shop. It will be a challenge.

 

[rslifkin]

Thanks. Is this an east coast thing? I just don't see it on the west coast. I don't look for them either.

I understand its part of the rules, like 2 short blasts of your horn when backing out of a slip, a rule that is ignored by the general boating public.

Found this.

https://www.boatsnews.com/story/28786/is-the-mooring-ball-mandatory


For the OP. Hope you can find a repair shop. It will be a challenge.

It's rare around here too. Required, but most just ignore it.