Bounty question

[charles]

The latest on the BOUNTY 11/5/12

HMS Bounty sinking to be investigated; victim was 'very concerned' - latimes.com

If one is truly interested in matters nautical this site g Captain is very informative.
Staffed by professional MARINERS.
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[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Edelweiss

Hmmm?
This is the original HM Bethia (Bounty) as she was called prior to purchase, refitting and commissioning by the Royal Navy (below).

The tonnage is listed (220) as "tons burthen" which is an archaic method of estimating cargo carrying capacity and not the weight.

Has anyone seen a reliable equivalent tonnage measurement of the replica Bounty? I know the replica was about 20' longer, but I've seen tonnage estimates in some of these posts that are almost twice that of the original Bounty? How about the plans for the replica Bounty?

(Great Britain)
Name: Bethia (1784–1787)
Bounty (1787–)
Builder: Blaydes shipyard, Kingston-upon-Hull, United Kingdom
Cost: £1950
Acquired: 26 May 1787
Commissioned: 16 August 1787
Fate: Burned, 23 January 1790
General characteristics
Class & type: Armed Vessel
Tons burthen: 220 26⁄94
Length: 90 ft 10 in (27.69 m)
Beam: 24 ft 4 in (7.42 m)
Depth of hold: 11 ft 4 in (3.45 m)
Propulsion: Sails
Sail plan: Full rigged ship
Complement: 44 officers and men
Armament: 4 × 4-pounder guns
10 × swivel guns

TallShipBounty.org

Based on this the new Bounty displaced 500 tons. The shorter original has an unknown displacement. Again I think the comparison between the weight of the merchantship Amsterdam and the Bounty illustrates the point that the Bounty was built as a prop. Whether warships or designed to carry cargo around the Horn, the originals were stout vessels less likely to take on a lot of water in rough water.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by psneeld

Yes really..unless you know what each crew member was doing for hours...and how the chain of command was handling it...you don't know when "they gave up" or became ineffective.

I have been on Coast Guard Icebreakers and Cutters where the crew was so seasick less that 40 percent could muster some days. Not sure how they may have responded in a true emergency such as fire or sinking...but it was an eye opener and most certainly things were happening that shouldn't have and the command wasn't aware of potential problems building...

So yes...a picture of a sinking boat and a few un-detailed reports hardly paints ANY picture of what was truly going on...though I will give you the truly experienced mariner can see in the mind's eye what was happening

To me the important discussion item is this happens at sea during storms (major incapacitation, fatigue, seasickness, equipment failure, etc etc and the jumbled mess accelerates deteriorating situations and certainly make small issues harder to overcome when they need to be.

So maybe like you I don't know why other than bravado made this captain sail and while I don't know why it sank in in this storm, I maybe like you have a pretty good guess.

True enought that the investigation will be the authoritative word but most of the relevant facts have already been published or are known. At 9pm or so she reported taking on 2' of water an hour but her pumps were keeping up with some percentage of the water ingress. After that her pumps failed when she lost all power. She drew 13' and with 10' of water below her crew abandoned ship. The first rescue happened at 6:30 am or about 90 minutes after the ship was abandoned. 90 minutes is another 3' of water meaning the ship is going to look pretty much like the picture I posted.

[Aquabelle]

The "Bounty" which operated for many years as a tourist cruise vessel on Sydney harbour was also a 'replica' built for a movie. It was never part of the Sydney Heritage Fleet and it is not the vessel which sank in Sandy. The ex-Sydney Harbour "Bounty" is, I believe, now in Hong Kong where it is owned by a resort company.

[sunchaser]

Last year a Canada flagged sailing school vessel (about 120' ??) sunk off the coast of Argentina. Windows and hatches were left open by the students/crew to keep cool and big seas did it in. There are many old sail boats used for fun and frolic by teachers and students ( I note many long haired middle aged men and lots of young ladies). The original crews and mates were pretty well schooled too, but in very different way. My great grandfather did Boston to San Franciso in the 1880s as a young deckhand. His written records are stunning (normal for back then) as to the discipline expected and punishment meted out. Picture 40 crew on the masts in 60 knot gales around Cape Horn

My wife and I toured several of the old sailing ships in Darling Harbour earlier this year. The crews, training and intent seemed pretty serious and ably supervised by ex Navy officers. Thanks to Bruce K for all his great hospitality as he motored us around Sidney Harbour, great wine and food were served and nary a sail hoisted.

[koliver]

If you review the pictures in the site Delfin posted TallShipBounty.org you will see that she was in fact stoutly built. That rebuild was done in 2006, so she should have been in relatively good condition.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by koliver

If you review the pictures in the site Delfin posted TallShipBounty.org you will see that she was in fact stoutly built. That rebuild was done in 2006, so she should have been in relatively good condition.

Unless her displacement changed after the refit, which is possible, she is a very light 180' wooden vessel, at least compared to sailing vessels of similar design, and that would normally mean a lot more flexing of the hull when worked. The use of modern techniques might have stiffened her so that the sheer weight and size of members typically seen in a vessel like that wouldn't be needed to keep her from working her seams open in rough weather. However, we have rather definitive proof that wasn't the case. She sank in 40 knot winds, 18 foot seas.

The question is begged that if you were the producer of the Mutiny on the Bounty with a budget, would you construct your movie prop to be a proper sailing ship, or a proper movie prop? I don't know, but I'd have to guess the latter. Maybe that was why this particular vessel was dependent on her bilge pumps to keep her afloat.

[BruceK]

Originally Posted by Marin

I'm thinking it was the Sydney Swan. The James Craig is is considerably larger than what I remember. Is Darling Harbor the inner harbor behind the bridge? We did take a ferry back there and I vaguely recall a big square rigger back in there.

Yes, Darling Harbour is to port after passing under the Bridge, it has numerous tour ferry wharves.
I too think it was Sydney Swan you saw.Her normal wharf is near Dawes Point. I was on her on the Harbour some years back, fairly sure she is wooden. James Craig is a much larger.

[BruceK]

Originally Posted by sunchaser

My wife and I toured several of the old sailing ships in Darling Harbour earlier this year. The crews, training and intent seemed pretty serious and ably supervised by ex Navy officers. Thanks to Bruce K for all his great hospitality as he motored us around Sydney Harbour, great wine and food were served and nary a sail hoisted.

Sunchaser,good hearing from you, it was a pleasure. I see winter has you back at the keyboard.
Doriana is at the shipwrights, for several weeks, to repair and renew the decks. Less repair work with foam sandwich under the teak instead of the IG usual sandwich of rotted teak blocks.

[Edelweiss]

Originally Posted by BruceK

Yes, Darling Harbour is to port after passing under the Bridge, it has numerous tour ferry wharves.
I too think it was Sydney Swan you saw.Her normal wharf is near Dawes Point. I was on her on the Harbour some years back, fairly sure she is wooden. James Craig is a much larger.

======================================
Looks like you have another tall ship called the Southern Swan in Sydney Harbor. Quite a spectacular ship.

Southern Swan is Sydney's only authentic timber tall ship, having been designed to withstand the icy conditions of the North Atlantic before sailing from England to Australia. Now available for wedding charters in Sydney Harbour, she makes for a unique and striking venue for your wedding reception venue or ceremony.

* 130' in length (40m)
* Weighs 200 tonnes
* Sydney's only authentic timber tall ship - massively built of Danish oak
* Built in the style of the 1850s
* Beam: 8.2m
* Draught: 3.3m
* Mast height: 24m

[BruceK]

Edelweiss, I`m sure there is only one. Apologies for my mistake, you have the correct name, "Southern Swan". When I was on board she was still called Svanen, to which she may revert if she ever leaves Sydney, she has become a feature of the Harbour.

[Marin]

Based on Aquabelle's post the vessel we saw may have well been the movie Bounty. It was docked bow-in on a pier that stuck into the harbor in front of the restaurants that are between the hotel we stayed in and the ferry terminal. I recall being told it was a movie ship.

[FF]

"Also, she was a square rigged ship, which means that running into a head wind is pretty much impossible"

At Trafalgar , Nelsons log shows 90 deg tacks .

A modern replica should do as well as normal.1800.

[Andy G]

Originally Posted by Marin

Based on Aquabelle's post the vessel we saw may have well been the movie Bounty. It was docked bow-in on a pier that stuck into the harbor in front of the restaurants that are between the hotel we stayed in and the ferry terminal. I recall being told it was a movie ship.

If you were at the Sheraton prior to 2008, it probably was the 'Mel Gibson Bounty' She was docked near the hotel, opposite the Opera house.I took my son and his mates out on it for his 10th birthday party, he 's now 25.

She's a bit of a fake though, steel hull with wood planking.

[Marin]

I'm sure, then, that the movie Bounty is what we saw. Thanks for the clarification.

[gaunty]

But why did she put to sea.

It wasn't as if Sandy was a secret.

I have just reread Conrad's "Typhoon", why you would be taking a 'trick' square rigger in the face of a known Hurricane escapes me. McWhirr only had books to guess from we have 3D technicolour sat with USGS or NOAA aircraft penetrating the mother and sending back live coverage.

Apart from the tragic loss of life we are now without what was probably a beautiful looking ship.

I live in Perth Western Australia (west coast Australia and a nasty leeshore) around 120 nm north of Capes Naturaliste and Leeuwin, both fairly notorious for bad stuff going down.

Winter = frontal 30+ knots and 6 meter seas as the base.
Summer = sea "breeze" 15 -30 knots 3 meters seas on 3 meter swell. If you're not in the lee of he river or one of 2 smallish islands by around midday it's really uncomfortable.
In between it's heaven on a stick.

[charles]

Again, what the PROFESSIONALS have to say about the sinking AND the discussion going on on this list.

The Disconnect Between Professional Mariners and Recreational Boaters over the Bounty Tragedy | gCaptain - Maritime & Offshore News

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by charles

Again, what the PROFESSIONALS have to say about the sinking AND the discussion going on on this list.

The Disconnect Between Professional Mariners and Recreational Boaters over the Bounty Tragedy | gCaptain - Maritime & Offshore News

Just to keep the wrenches flying...it was a PROFESSIONAL that took the Bounty to sea.

[RickB]

Originally Posted by charles

If one is truly interested in matters nautical this site g Captain is very informative.
Staffed by professional MARINERS.

A few here might not like what they read. "professional MARINERS" are not always as kind and gentle as some readers prefer.

[charles]

The professional's DISCUSSION FORUM

HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy - Page 20

I note that they tend to NOT mince words!

If one is easily offended do not enter and the Moderators dont get worked up!