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Old 02-18-2018, 03:10 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Portage_Bay View Post

In my defense and trying my best to avoid an Internet pissing match so many forums fall into I'll point out my first post on this was in objection to the phrase "Red over red, captain's in the head". Which leads to a misunderstanding of the proper use of NUC. And thus to potentially hazardous situations.

So let's put this one to rest and and agree to agree.

I learned it as "red over red, captain is dead". That might be more in keeping with colregs :-)
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:45 PM   #22
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As far as brute memorization, we were required to reproduce from memory the attached sheet.
I like that layout! I did something very similar, but did different sheets for sounds, lights, etc. Yours is much more thorough.

It wasn't a requirement that we do this in the class I took, but I think you really need to do something to visually "get" the rules. They actually start to make sense when you put them down this way and see the relationships between them.

I'm going to steal that format. Hope you don't mind!
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Old 02-18-2018, 04:52 PM   #23
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I learned it as "red over red, captain is dead". That might be more in keeping with colregs :-)
That's how I learned it too. In other words, nothing is happening.
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:55 PM   #24
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Thanks guys...some never get past thinking that there might be a better mousetrap....
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:39 PM   #25
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red over red, captain's in bed.
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Old 02-19-2018, 02:59 AM   #26
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First off, I can't imagine napping while my boat is underway with no one at the helm.

However for those that do that, I suspect that they would not want to hoist the NUC signal since it is basically telling the world they are not following the rules.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:38 AM   #27
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"We have no good way under the rules to indicate we are temporarily away from the wheel."

Strobe lights have come a long way .

It would seem fairly easy to have a strobe flash only once every 30 - or 60 seconds to advertise the location of a slow moving vessel that is not in distress.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:49 AM   #28
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First off, I can't imagine napping while my boat is underway with no one at the helm.

However for those that do that, I suspect that they would not want to hoist the NUC signal since it is basically telling the world they are not following the rules.
not really, just telling the world they cant comply.

no different and really no big deal.

the problem is if there is a collision, they would be found at fault for not complying with the rules on several accounts...and so might the other boat.

but until a collision, how would anyone know why the vessel was being declared NUC?

isnt it better to warn the other boat?
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Old 02-19-2018, 01:12 PM   #29
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First off, I can't imagine napping while my boat is underway with no one at the helm.

However for those that do that, I suspect that they would not want to hoist the NUC signal since it is basically telling the world they are not following the rules.
In a previous life as an offshore tuna fisherman, we would drift at night. I used to just throw on the anchor light, like more boats did in that circumstance, but |I came to believe the the NUC lights were more appropriate in that circumstance in that it let others know that there was no one at the helm on our boat and that they shouldn't expect a response from us. Technically, we were supposed to have someone on watch, but sleep becomes very precious when you fish from dark til dark, day after day.
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Old 02-19-2018, 02:09 PM   #30
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Slow down folks. The rules are very clear. It doesn't matter what mnemonic phrase you use to memorize them, or what you THINK they mean. Here's the definition of NUC, right there in Rule #3:

Quote:
(f) The term vessel not under command means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.
There's really not much to argue about here.
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Old 02-19-2018, 02:25 PM   #31
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Yes seems to fit "captain sleeping" perfectly to me.

Not "exceptional" wrt the irresponsible single-hander's routines, but yes wrt the regs.

Intention is to communicate "it's all on you bud, we're just floating here"
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:52 PM   #32
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would the guys who keep repeating the perfect definition please try to understand we all know what it says.

we would just like to see it expanded ...as it makes sense to some of us with no issues that we have come across so far. in fact it may make things safer.

we arent arguing what the wording is....
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Old 02-19-2018, 07:36 PM   #33
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Wouldn't the USCG give a citation or some sort of slap on the wrist if they saw a boat with no one at the helm ?
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Old 02-19-2018, 07:47 PM   #34
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they turn a blind eye single handed races it would seem....
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:02 PM   #35
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would the guys who keep repeating the perfect definition please try to understand we all know what it says.

we would just like to see it expanded ...as it makes sense to some of us with no issues that we have come across so far. in fact it may make things safer.

we arent arguing what the wording is....
The COLREGS wording is probably not as good as it could be. It is certainly causing a lot of confusion among this group and some professionals as well. The word "exceptional" means problems with the vessel, not the captain or qualified watch stander. Rather than (N)ot (U)nder (C)ommand think along the lines of "Not Command-able" For example a steering failure. See my earlier post #11 for a link that clearly explains the definition of NUC. That explanation matches what I was taught by instructors holding "Master Unlimited" credentials.

Unfortunately for those of us who must from time to time leave the wheel unattended there are no lights or day shapes defined in the COLREGS to be displayed to convey that status to nearby vessels.

I can't imagine any legal troubles for the capt of a recreational boat coming from simply displaying the NUC lights or shapes improperly. UNLESS there is an incident. Then the improper display will only add to your misery.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:17 PM   #36
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whew.... I think so far everyone in the discussion is smart enough to read the rule and know exactly what it says....

I was trying but seem to have failed to move the discussion beyond the obvious.....

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Old 02-19-2018, 08:36 PM   #37
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With all due respect to those with unique situations, it seems the discussion has actually moved to:

Quote:
Rule 5

Look-out

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as
well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and
conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.
The intent seems pretty clear. This is probably why there's no day shape or lights for "nobody on watch."

Without condoning or condemning anyone's practices, I don't think the rules were written to consider that possibility.

I apologize to those who don't like to see the rules quoted. It just seems to me that ought to be the starting point. We can debate from there, but we shouldn't invent our own wording.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:39 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Portage_Bay View Post
The COLREGS wording is probably not as good as it could be. It is certainly causing a lot of confusion among this group and some professionals as well. The word "exceptional" means problems with the vessel, not the captain or qualified watch stander. Rather than (N)ot (U)nder (C)ommand think along the lines of "Not Command-able" For example a steering failure. See my earlier post #11 for a link that clearly explains the definition of NUC. That explanation matches what I was taught by instructors holding "Master Unlimited" credentials.

Unfortunately for those of us who must from time to time leave the wheel unattended there are no lights or day shapes defined in the COLREGS to be displayed to convey that status to nearby vessels.

I can't imagine any legal troubles for the capt of a recreational boat coming from simply displaying the NUC lights or shapes improperly. UNLESS there is an incident. Then the improper display will only add to your misery.
I did read your post #11 and the comments are not part of the reg itself but one sources interpretation of the word "exceptional." Now, I interpret it's intent in the same way you do, but that's just an interpretation of something not defined in the regs. Many of us have been taught exactly as you were, but it's still an interpretation, not anything defined in the regs.

The situation of no one at the helm isn't covered because the colregs do not consider that to be acceptable. Therefore, I could argue if I chose that it's "exceptional." Regardless there is no other provision so those people pick what they feel comes closest.

Now, if I'm on the seas, I'd rather see NUC if no captain than to see nothing displayed. Also, as I look at rule 18, I find treating the missing captain as NUC to be good as it means I have a responsibility to keep out of that boat's way.

We need to not get so hung up on the specific words or interpretations we've been taught that we lose sight of what may actually be best in circumstances. As to liability, a boat without anyone at the helm is likely to incur some in an accident. However, using the two red lights won't increase that. In fact, it can increase the liability for the other boat even if some feel NUC was misused. At least a warning was given.

Psneeld has lived with the rules, but still sees the value of expanding simply because nothing else exists. I'm on record as opposing single handed ocean crossing where the only helmsperson is asleep at times. However, if one is going to slow the boat and go below and sleep a few hours, I'd rather see the two lights signifying NUC than to keep waiting for the boat to take some avoidance action that's not going to come.

I can't see any incident in which signaling NUC because no one was at the helm, would increase the liability. It's a warning to other boats. Is someone going to go after them for a false warning? The liability comes from no one being at the helm, not from red over red.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:46 PM   #39
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:37 PM   #40
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Yes well put.
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