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Old 03-08-2020, 11:30 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by tiltrider1 View Post
you Are mixing apples and oranges. Cars are all the same. I can quote you the exact cost to have your car repaired because I know exactly what it takes. Call your mechanic and ask him for a quote to add a Mercedes engine to your Toyota and see if you can get a labor quote. Boats are never the same. They are full of after market systems. You never know what you are going to run into. On one boat you just cut a hole in the dash, on the next you have to plug the hole first, the third boat, the dash is full and you have to mount to the ceiling.

The vender knows that if he were to quote labor that accounted for everything that could go wrong he would scare off most customers.
That’s just for installing the box, what if the wire chase is full or there isn’t one? Then he may have to add circuit breakers or change voltage. How do you give an estimate for that?
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:26 PM   #22
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That’s just for installing the box, what if the wire chase is full or there isn’t one? Then he may have to add circuit breakers or change voltage. How do you give an estimate for that?
By giving the worst case scenario quote. The mark-up I was referring to earlier.

Also, unless the guy doing the quote is the guy doing the work, forget getting an accurate labor quote.
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Old 03-08-2020, 01:10 PM   #23
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That’s just for installing the box, what if the wire chase is full or there isn’t one? Then he may have to add circuit breakers or change voltage. How do you give an estimate for that?
He should examine for things like that as part of developing the estimate. Don't estimate blind, do so with knowledge.

I think we all reflect the worlds we've come from. Some are willing to be casual with arrangements. I treat quotes on marine service like I've treated things in business all my life and I expect good, reasonable estimates plus must be told in advance of any overruns. Now, that's also why I'm better equipped mentally to deal with major boatyards than I am to deal with random individual mechanics or service providers. Major yards are use to doing business the way I am.

There's not a right or wrong, it's what works for you. But this is what is right for me.

Now, I do have people I've always dealt with on an hourly basis, so not 100% estimate in business. People I've used for extended time and doing small jobs, under $500 or so typically.

That's one element we're missing from the OP's situation and that is what is the price of the parts and labor you're talking about. Are we talking about 3 hours labor or 40 hours?
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Old 03-08-2020, 02:46 PM   #24
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Hi Debbiet,

To a certain extent, I feel your pain and sympathize. In an ideal world, one would search out a service provider that has experience with the equipment installation you desire, not only with the hardware itself, but with the labor required to do such an install, on your particular brand, model, and year of boat. That provider would then inspect IN DETAIL your particular boat, and provide you with a fixed-price quote for both labor (sub-contracted or otherwise), and materials. He should be able to provide such a quote, as he's installed exactly this material, on your exactly identical boat multiple times before, right??? If he hasn't, why are you asking him to do so now?

Should you accept his quote, and he then runs into untoward issues with either material costs (the dollar exchange rate takes a dump, the parts vendor announces a price increase, etc.) and/or labor issues (after disassembly of your boat, there's a hidden bulkhead in the way, for instance), your provider should then STOP WORK, and negotiate a change order with you to move ahead.

Note I said "...In an ideal world." Even here in the PNW, a lively boating market if there ever was one, few service providers work this way. And while I believe we, the boating public, should demand service providers work in this manner and walk away from those that do not, I also don't believe the moon should be made of green cheese. To my knowledge, only Philbrooks in Sydney, BC will provide fixed-price estimates, and even guarantees to work to those estimates. Wish I could afford 'em, they do great work.

Your lament "...what did I do wrong?" is perhaps based on your experience in the auto repair business, where there is, indeed, book values of labor and material for almost every item of repair and/or upgrade on any automobile. But then, I'm pretty sure you understand this, and isn't really the reason for your original posting.

Certainly obtaining a cost estimate to include parts and labor for any major repair or upgrade to your boat is perfectly reasonable. If your vendor(s) are unwilling to provide the information you need to be comfortable prior to commissioning the work, run away. There are many, many unaffiliated independent marine electronics installers in the PNW qualified and willing to provide you with at least a ballpark material and labor estimate for your work. However, once the project's underway with your vendor of choice, stay closely attached, watch like a hawk, and be fully prepared for the unknown. And the additional costs associated with the unknown. And I'm pretty sure you understand this paradigm as well.

In my experience, it's a rare, rare boat project indeed that doesn't come in late, and over budget. My own included. I'm usually off by about 3X, and I've been afloat a long, long time. Oh, how I long for that green cheese...

Regards,

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Old 03-13-2020, 01:16 PM   #25
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I do lots of boat work and it's always by the hour. I also don't provide 'free estimates'. Going to a boat to walk through it etc costs me money.

Boat yards charge enough to absorb all those costs (as well as their mistakes, poor management etc) and they are totally comfortable going 50% or more over their estimate.

Find someone you like and then trust him/her. If you don't like their work don't hire them again but to have a decent working relationship you have to hire them in an environment of trust. They are trusting you to make your final payments after all.
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Old 03-13-2020, 02:55 PM   #26
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This threw me because I'm used to working with shipyards that provide a complete estimate. I asked the both for labor. One hasn't responded and the other said "we don't quote labor but probably somewhere around XXXX". So it's clear they sub it out, ok fine but...

So I went to a third source and what floored me was they said they could do the job and I could look at the electronics at one of the other companies I'd spoken with - in essence someone [I thought] was a competitor. I flat-out told him I had a proposal from them already.

I think it might not necessarily mean sub'd labor, at least just from that comment. (But you could ask them about that, specifically.)

I'd expect that kind of comment ("we don't quote, but somewhere around XXX...") might be partly because there are so many variables, and they can't commit to XXX knowing that there's probably something in there that will bite them.

Our chosen installer didn't quote labor, offered a labor guess-timate sight unseen, didn't sub out the labor, and the final bill came pretty close to their guess.

Then too, some guys (your third choice?) are more focused as installers, and they maybe expect you can buy the equipment from anywhere. Which also in turn maybe means they don't have to deal with future warranty issues on specific equipment.

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Old 03-13-2020, 04:31 PM   #27
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The marine industry does have its unique idiosyncrasies, but in many ways it's like other businesses. Others suggested a face to face meeting and I agree, that's a necessity.

Right now the industry is booming, there aren't enough people to do the work, so businesses tend to be lax or worse when it comes to working for your business. I never want to go through the dark days of the Recession again, but...when I would e mail a boat builder or equipment manufacturer a question about a product, they would often respond very quickly and often with a call. Today, many contractors know if they don't get your business, there's someone right behind you.

Having said all that, you can go about this in a way the increases the likelihood of a good result. Do your homework and carefully and thoroughly vet contractors, and you'll be satisfied.

This article will walk you through some of the detials.

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/c...e-code-part-i/

Here's an excerpt...questions to ask, and guidelines for vetting a yard or contractor.


Do you quote work and if so what are the terms of the quote and what’s the yard’s definition of a quote, is the price fixed or is it an estimate, does it include shipping, taxes, and other fees?

For T&M and quoted projects, what’s the material markup protocol?

Is the yard’s workmanship guaranteed and if so what happens if I’m far away from the yard and someone else has to undertake repairs?

How are third party warranties handled, will the yard act as an intermediary for gear they install that then fails? If, for instance, an inverter the yard installs fails, will they assist you in getting coverage?

Will the work be carried out to ABYC/NMEA (or another) standard? If so, are the folks doing the work ABYC/NMEA certified in the appropriate discipline or supervised by those who are? Does the yard have a valid membership in this organization?

Make certain it’s agreed that all work to comply with manufacturer’s installation instructions.

If the work is quoted, is it billed in segments as the work is carried out?

In cases where you are going to a yard for a specific project or refit, is storage/dockage or electricity charged while work is being carried out (ideally it should not be)? Will the yard consider waiving or discounting off season storage fees for large projects and refits?

Do you need to provide a deposit for work before it begins and if so what’s the typical percentage or amount?

Timely invoicing is important, particularly for T&M work. Being slammed with a huge invoice after the work is completed or nearly completed should be avoided. Toward that end, ask, how often are invoices sent out and if you call or e mail can you get an up to the minute (or at least through the previous work day) progress report on the amount of work that’s been completed or invoiced?

Establish a time table for the work’s completion.

Ask to see a sample invoice. Having wrestled with the equation of providing enough information, but not too much, I’m sensitive to how detailed invoices are, or are not. I once had a client describe the invoicing from a yard, in which he had nearly $100,000 worth of work completed, as “less than useless” because it was so confusing and riddled with errors. Ideally, it would be beneficial to see an example of what you can expect to receive before committing to any project, especially a costly and/or lengthy one.
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Old 03-13-2020, 07:19 PM   #28
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I have found that asking for referrals from my dock mates and Coast Godard Aux pals has been the best way to get work done on time, correctly the first time and at the price I anticipated. I have not price shopped on repairs but I have asked for a verbal estimate so I know what to expect but also understand that the cost could go up do to unforeseen isssues and ask that if this does pop up to let me know ahead of time. To date (4yrs) Most projects have been within estimate and I never feel I got hosed.

I also don't hound or hassle the techs I treat them as equals and communicate frequently. I have also given gifts to folks who have done good work (gift cert to a great resteraunt, rare olive oil etc) this has put me in good graces and hopefully gets me priority attention. I figure it cannot hurt to have them on my good side
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Old 03-15-2020, 09:42 AM   #29
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30 years ago i got a boatyard/marina quote to clean and coat my teak (minimal) - $900, went to a local co who said they do most of this marina's work and would do it for $600, buttonholed a worker on twin boat to mine as he did the same job - $300, but he was afraid to alienate the $600 bid guy since he did most of his work.
What happened to the clean 33% profit factor used in the hardware store i worked in in the 50's ?
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Old 03-15-2020, 11:54 PM   #30
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30 years ago i got a boatyard/marina quote to clean and coat my teak (minimal) - $900, went to a local co who said they do most of this marina's work and would do it for $600, buttonholed a worker on twin boat to mine as he did the same job - $300, but he was afraid to alienate the $600 bid guy since he did most of his work.
What happened to the clean 33% profit factor used in the hardware store i worked in in the 50's ?
That store went out of business. We target 43-45% in Hardware stores and 41% is probably around the industry average.
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Old 03-16-2020, 01:06 AM   #31
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For work on my AT, I sort of want to upgrade my electronics completely. The best man for the job.... well, during the boating season... he works in the NE, winter... slack time in the NE, he comes south. He knows the AT inside and out. He gave me an estimate and an approx labor cost. IF I stay out of his way..... there will be 'no lost motion.' He, like others, will get the best wholesale price on the equipment, charge me retail and then his hourly rate to install. Because he knows the ATs and I stay out of his way..... he will be on and off the boat as soon as possible and on to his next job. Someone not familiar with the ATs.... lost motion.... looking how to install the equipment. The owner would basically be paying for his learning 'how to install and where all the wires go.'
So, I wait.... I tell him what I want to do and I wait till winter and he cycles south to work on the other ATs in FL. Small jobs and emergencies, I can get done with local labor.... Something like replacing all the electronics... it would be better to wait for him. It will result in fewer hours labor. Does that make sense?
The old parts are his.... he can use them on another boat to repair another boat with 15 year old electronics. I can't fault him for that, I know he will make a profit selling my old parts to someone else. It's an 'dont ask what happens to the old equipment.' He is honest as the day is long. He makes allowances ie. what he can use elsewhere and reduces the price he will charge me. The major cost is his labor and because of his knowledge of the boat.... the overall labor cost will be less. LOL IF I get in his way and slow him down with LOTS of questions and 'me helping him', the labor costs will be greater. He does know, I hate 'hidden fuses.' If you dont understand that, you will learn.... at your expense for additional labor cost. IF something stops working, I can call him and he will tell me where to look for the solution, blown fuse behind a panel. So far, it has never been a problem because he does the install correctly and the fuses do not blow. NO learning curve.
We all learn quickly not to panic or get upset when the tech does not show up as promised....
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Old 03-16-2020, 05:36 AM   #32
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Many boat yards do not have enough skilled labor jobs to keep a good tech employed.

Their simple answer is to hire the local electronics supplier labor.

It works out well as the electronics tech has probably done enough installations , and repairs to do an acceptable job.
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