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Old 01-30-2019, 06:15 PM   #21
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In some cases I think it's true they can't represent both parties, but in this scenario I think he could have. He had a strong offer in hand and the sellers knew about it, I just had to submit an offer that netted the seller more. The broker would have made 50% more commission had my deal been accepted, so it certainly seems like he would have preferred for it to go through unless there is information I'm not aware of.

Regarding the sales agreement, that's the entire point of the thread. I identified the items that needed to be fixed before the survey and submitted a lower offer with the intentions of not modifying for any survey findings. He seemed to think that the other offer wasn't going to adjust for survey items which it ultimately did - by a lot according to my contact.
No, by law he can't represent both. By law, he was representing the seller, had a contract to do so with the seller only. That's the way it works.

Now, you don't know all the facts as to the other offer and things found and such, so you can't really say your deal was better. The problem is the seller never saw your offer so couldn't judge it. Whether it was conveyed to him orally and whether that conveyance fairly represented what you were talking about, you'll never know. You don't know who said what to whom. Go back in your memory to the game where everyone is in a circle and the first person whispers to the second. It goes around the room and then you all laugh hard and what ends up at the final person, nothing like what started. That same thing happens with just three people. I don't trust others to accurately convey what I say to them. Too many times in business, I've seen it go wrong. Once spoke to a heavy equipment service man and asked him to have the owner of the company call me. I get the call. It goes "Roscoe said you had a problem and needed me to call." I laughed and said "I didn't tell him I had a problem or why I wanted you to call. Actually I wanted to thank you for the excellent service you provide." That is one person with a very simple message and totally screwed up.

You were taking a unique approach, not a bad one, just different than many. Honestly, one that needed to be in writing to be clear. Broker might say "I've got another offer slightly less but he's willing to let some things go" or something nebulous and vague like that. In writing, you could have said, "Offer is xxxxx, subject to sea trial and survey. Buyer already recognizes A (estimated cost $xx), B (estimated cost $yy), C (estimated cost $zz), and D (estimated cost $qq) and has taken those into consideration and will not seek any reduction after survey for those items."

Had I, as a seller, seen such an offer as that, I might have said, "ok, he seems serious, he's examined it, I think his estimates on those items are high but still at least perhaps he's less likely to seek a huge reduction on survey. I like his approach." Now another seller might have said "The guy is pointing out things in advance. He won't ask for anything from them after the survey but he sounds like a guy who will ask for item after item post survey. No thanks." You don't know how it would have been received but at least the final decision maker would have been the one making the decision.
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Old 01-30-2019, 06:20 PM   #22
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mod45, I think you moved faster than the other parties in the transaction. I realize you discovered the issues before the other party had a survey completed. Sure the broker should understand your offer. However like Real Estate greed may have set in and the broker was hoping some of the things you brought up may have been over looked or at least discounted.
Yes that's a solid explanation. Maybe he was surprised the sellers agreed to the repairs. All the more reason to get a written offer in front of them going forward, it would have been in the back of their mind.
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Old 01-30-2019, 06:31 PM   #23
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You were taking a unique approach, not a bad one, just different than many. Honestly, one that needed to be in writing to be clear. Broker might say "I've got another offer slightly less but he's willing to let some things go" or something nebulous and vague like that. In writing, you could have said, "Offer is xxxxx, subject to sea trial and survey. Buyer already recognizes A (estimated cost $xx), B (estimated cost $yy), C (estimated cost $zz), and D (estimated cost $qq) and has taken those into consideration and will not seek any reduction after survey for those items."
Thanks, going forward I will submit offers on paper, the seller not seeing it at some point probably cost me the boat. It's funny though, many times I've had brokers chant the mantra "put it in writing, put it in writing" and in this case he didn't push for it at all. He kept saying the number isn't high enough and this other offer is at asking price. Lesson learned. If I bump into the seller around the neighborhood, I might relay this information.

Funny enough, on another boat I messaged with you about BandB, the seller's "representative" told me not to waste the paper. We were apart by about 5%. I always felt his incentives were off, as he managed multiple boats for the very wealthy owner. One less boat for him was less job security. Maybe I'll call him back up and ask that he submit it to the owner in writing. I liked that one better anyway
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Old 01-30-2019, 06:36 PM   #24
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mod45, I get that, but the seller did not. Your offer, atypical but intelligent and sophisticated, detailing what you would accept at survey without reducing your offer, never reached the seller. He was not put under the pressure of weighing up 2 offers of differing amounts put on different bases.That was because the broker, rightly or wrongly(as it turns out) believed the existing offer superior,while acting in the sellers interests,not yours.
Now the rectification work is being done, the sale will proceed, and the opportunity is gone. Except you have increased your knowledge on negotiation, broker behavior, and sellers thinking.
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Old 01-30-2019, 06:45 PM   #25
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Thanks, going forward I will submit offers on paper, the seller not seeing it at some point probably cost me the boat. It's funny though, many times I've had brokers chant the mantra "put it in writing, put it in writing" and in this case he didn't push for it at all. He kept saying the number isn't high enough and this other offer is at asking price. Lesson learned. If I bump into the seller around the neighborhood, I might relay this information.

Funny enough, on another boat I messaged with you about BandB, the seller's "representative" told me not to waste the paper. We were apart by about 5%. I always felt his incentives were off, as he managed multiple boats for the very wealthy owner. One less boat for him was less job security. Maybe I'll call him back up and ask that he submit it to the owner in writing. I liked that one better anyway
That's a reason I do recommend a buyer's broker who might at least get a better read on things. There is effort in a written offer and a deposit. Typically I prefer a good faith amount with offer and deposit to be made within 24 hours of acceptance or something similar.

I've known many people to say they wouldn't accept something but then see it in writing and think about it and suddenly change their mind.
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Old 01-30-2019, 06:52 PM   #26
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I've known many people to say they wouldn't accept something but then see it in writing and think about it and suddenly change their mind.
+++ Yeah this happens a lot in Real Estate as well. Especially with an earnest deposit check pinned to the offer.
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Old 01-30-2019, 07:08 PM   #27
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"verbal offer" is an oxymoron. If it's not written, it's not an offer.
Oldersalt

Exactly!


No self respecting broker would present a verbal.


No self respecting seller would respond to probing BS.
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Old 01-30-2019, 07:20 PM   #28
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Following the oxymoron trail, it`s been said "an oral offer is not worth the paper it`s written on". But,an oral offer is still an offer. Even if a written one might be more attractive.
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Old 01-30-2019, 08:22 PM   #29
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No self respecting broker would present a verbal.


No self respecting seller would respond to probing BS.
Everyone's different. I'm not offended by any offer and certainly don't need to see it in writing because a buyer can back out of it several ways. If they're serious, the followup will happen within 24 hours, if not who cares.

I've sold businesses, solidified partnerships and bought/sold real estate with numbers that were exchanged in emails/calls and minimal due diligence. Certainly there's work after that number's been agreed to and it can fall apart depending on circumstances, but at the very least it assures a buyer and seller they are on the same wavelength and not wasting time.

One of my first businesses got a letter one morning, FedEx'd overnight from a huge law firm, stating that someone wanted to talk to us about an acquisition but we needed to sign an NDA and talk to their attorney. We tossed it. The next day the attorney emails us asking about the letter and we told him we didn't want to deal with someone who did business through a law firm. The third day I got a call from the owner of the business but our relationship was off to a rocky start and it never got serious.

A year later, a public company biz dev guy sends us an email asking to "talk" that afternoon. We were on a call within 2 hours. The next day the CEO and several VPs were at our office across the country at 830am. The day after that they made an offer on the phone and 3 months later it was done. Those 3 months were like an extended financial colonoscopy, but the framework of the deal was in place within 48 hours and no lawyers.
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Old 01-30-2019, 09:05 PM   #30
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You never know the seller's broker agreement. It can be very unique. There may be little commission on the sale, cause he is buying a bigger boat, and using the same guy.

I use a broker when I buy. He can get info quickly, and the right broker may have more knowledge than me on the mfg or model. Truth be known, I can only be an expert on women and rum.

He can cut to the chase with the selling broker.

Your deal may have been better on paper, but the other deal could have been the third boat with one of the parties, a no brainer.

Think as a broker, getting a deal that far takes a lot of dead ends first. He was not going to risk it, if he had been listing the boat for six months. "One in the hand is worth two in the bush".

You can always submit a contingency offer, just in case the buyer steps in front of a bus or gets cold feet. That is a really powerful negotiation tool few use, for both sides.
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Old 01-30-2019, 10:02 PM   #31
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Everyone's different. I'm not offended by any offer and certainly don't need to see it in writing because a buyer can back out of it several ways. If they're serious, the followup will happen within 24 hours, if not who cares.

I've sold businesses, solidified partnerships and bought/sold real estate with numbers that were exchanged in emails/calls and minimal due diligence. Certainly there's work after that number's been agreed to and it can fall apart depending on circumstances, but at the very least it assures a buyer and seller they are on the same wavelength and not wasting time.

One of my first businesses got a letter one morning, FedEx'd overnight from a huge law firm, stating that someone wanted to talk to us about an acquisition but we needed to sign an NDA and talk to their attorney. We tossed it. The next day the attorney emails us asking about the letter and we told him we didn't want to deal with someone who did business through a law firm. The third day I got a call from the owner of the business but our relationship was off to a rocky start and it never got serious.

A year later, a public company biz dev guy sends us an email asking to "talk" that afternoon. We were on a call within 2 hours. The next day the CEO and several VPs were at our office across the country at 830am. The day after that they made an offer on the phone and 3 months later it was done. Those 3 months were like an extended financial colonoscopy, but the framework of the deal was in place within 48 hours and no lawyers.
Bravo. Refreshing. My partner/brother and I have done (significant) business this way for three decades. Make the deal in good faith and then write it up. Not conventional and not for the paranoid for sure, but it seems to me that business/transactions need not be sub-human and therefor relegated to brokers and lawyers.

I find no fault with your approach to buying this boat as well. It didn't work out this time but is not an indictment of the method, a method which appears more rational than the conventional tap dance that normally goes on in these sorts of things. If I were the seller I would have expected the broker to keep me abreast of conversations like you described and I would have engaged.

Carry on and good luck.
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Old 01-30-2019, 10:29 PM   #32
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I am going to approach this from a different angle. This is also not meant to insult any one but to make sure all angles are covered.

Is it possible that the broker thinks you are a waste of his time. I am not suggesting anything is wrong with you or that you are a waste of time. I see a lot of brokers who think very highly of them selves, think they can read every customer like a book. These are the guys who try to bully deals together rather than sell a deal.

The fact that he didn’t push you to put your deal in writing as at least a backup deal tells me there is something wrong with this broker. There is a lot of opportunity for a deal to fall apart. Nothing puts me in a better negotiating position than to tell a customer I have a back up deal. So why did he blow you off. Is it possible that his buddy has made a low offer on this boat and he has successfully scared you away?

Is it possible that you don’t present well. I don’t know you, I don’t know how you dress or how you talk or if you smell and i’m Not suggesting that you don’t present well. I’m just putting the question in your head.

Anyway, you have gotten some solid advice already and I just wanted to toss in some things to think about.

Lastly, it might not be too late to take a run at this.
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Old 01-30-2019, 11:17 PM   #33
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Mmm, not meant to insult...ok.
klee wyck, I agree. A deal comes from the intentions and integrity of the parties, not a piece of paper. Marriage likewise. In case things go wrong or uncertainty arises a deal should be documented(sometimes it`s obligatory), but it`s not what makes the deal work.
Unfortunately the OP never got as far as a deal,let alone documenting it. There is nothing inherently wrong in oral negotiations, though for myself, I`d prefer negotiations in writing especially if there is any complexity. Like the OP`s " I won`t seek to adjust price post survey for these items".
(Confession: retired lawyer)
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Old 01-31-2019, 12:11 AM   #34
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I am going to approach this from a different angle. This is also not meant to insult any one but to make sure all angles are covered.

Is it possible that the broker thinks you are a waste of his time. I am not suggesting anything is wrong with you or that you are a waste of time. I see a lot of brokers who think very highly of them selves, think they can read every customer like a book. These are the guys who try to bully deals together rather than sell a deal.
No offense taken. I don't think this is the case. A brief amount of research and the conversation we had would confirm I'm a qualified buyer.
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Old 01-31-2019, 12:15 AM   #35
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Bravo. Refreshing. My partner/brother and I have done (significant) business this way for three decades. Make the deal in good faith and then write it up. Not conventional and not for the paranoid for sure, but it seems to me that business/transactions need not be sub-human and therefor relegated to brokers and lawyers.
Thanks. I try to treat everyone as competent and honest until they prove otherwise. Sure it's blown up in my face on occasion, but in the long run it's saved me countless hours, legal fees and forged some great partnerships.
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Old 01-31-2019, 07:04 AM   #36
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"Sometimes it does not hurt to find out who the owner is and speak directly to them."

Always worthwhile as you can feel out the seller and decide if the boat will be useful to you.

Some will disclose their maint sked , or none!

It costs big bucks and time to create a cruiser out of a dock queen.

To a great extent the newer a boat is the better chance it is a dock queen.
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:29 PM   #37
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Sorry I am a bit late to the conversation........ So there is no misunderstanding of the law, at least as it pertains to Florida:

Under CHAPTER 326, FLORIDA STATUTES YACHT AND SHIP BROKERSí ACT, 326.006 Powers and duties of division, paragraph e., 4. a brokers license may be revoked if he/she "Acts for both the buyer and seller in a transaction involving a yacht without the knowledge and written consent of both parties."

It would appear, if disclosed, the broker can represent both parties.

As a broker, I also agree that an offer (or counter offer) is not valid, unless presented in writing. I don't respond to "would he take?" from a buyer.

Also, with the OP's issue, if the first offer had been either countered, or accepted, then the ball was in the first buyer's court. Once seatrials and surveys had been completed, seller may have decided to continue and negotiate a lower price and/or agree to fix the deficiencies rather than have the boat go back on the market. The old "bird in hand" situation.

I have long ago stopped trying to figure out what "actually" goes on in the head of a buyer or seller. I have seen sellers accept the lower of 2 offers because the seller thought their "baby" would be in better hands.

One of the key elements of being a CPYB (Certified Professional Yacht Broker) is knowing you don't "own" or control the client. You just represent them to the best of your ability with goot ethics, with the emphasis on good ethics.

We don't have enough information in this situation to really know what happened.
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:54 PM   #38
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A little off subject;

When on the hunt for our first larger -for us- boat (Knot Salted), the listing was by a broker that had good communication with the seller. Upon request, we were able to meet and work directly with the owner during a three month buying process before sea trials were possible on Lake Erie.

There were negotiations, and the broker had done and did his job and earned his commission.

It was a great experience, and I consider the PO a friend, as we continue communication going on four years now. He still gives me good tips on our boat. He got out of boating and into fast classic cars.

It is worth asking to meet the owner. I always will, and any broker of my boat will know that I am willing to meet serious buyers so long as I am able. Then a reasonable offer is better able to be made and accepted.

I realize that some owners or brokers will never do that, (then I will move on) or may be unable, (then I will communicate through the broker).

I want to buy from a proud seller, and I want to be one.
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Old 02-04-2019, 03:12 PM   #39
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I have been buying and selling for almost 40 years. I detest the necessity to make a full price offer contingent on survey and then ask for price concessions after the survey; it's always seemed somehow dishonest to me. But that is what most now expect and if you don't do it, the broker might not even present the offer to the buyer in writing, he'll just call him to see if there is any interest at that price, or he won't call at all. The broker should present every offer in writing unless you don't want him to. that should be your call, not his. An offer in writing is far more valuable than an oral offer, which holds zero weight in court. The owner can't tell from a phone call whether you are serious.

So what I do depends on the interest in the boat. If it's been for sale for a year or more, the owner is probably getting a bit frustrated and may be amenable to an offer below full price. But if it's new on the market, you can't tell that. Ask the broker how many showings it's had. if you want it, offer full price contingent on survey and mechanical inspection and financing if necessary, but realize that an offer without a financing contingency is more attractive to the seller, and a cash offer with no contingencies is best of all. on occasion, you can get a remarkably good deal with an all cash, no contingency offer. But you have to take the risk of no survey and I wouldn't do that ever without a ton of experience in telling the good from the bad and most won't have that.

Every now and then you find a good boat that hasn't sold for a long time. On that one you can offer whatever you think is a fair offer and see if you get a counter offer or an acceptance. But if it has lots of interest and you want it, you have to do what you have to do.
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Old 02-04-2019, 03:16 PM   #40
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I agree KS. I much prefer dealing with the owner.

Every boat I've ever bought has been direct from the owner. No brokers involved. Its fairly simple that way. You look at the boat, discuss any issues, negotiate a price pending survey, shake hands, finalize the price after survey, and shake hands again. Deal done.
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