Boat Listings

[angus99]

Obviously, there's something I don't understand about the boating market, but why would YW have 5 listings of the same boat at 3 different price points ~$100K apart? I see there are multiple brokers involved, but why so many? And a $100 delta? Yikes!


1999 Defever Cockpit MY Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

1999 Defever Cockpit Motoryacht Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=21624&url=

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=38308&url=

1999 Defever Sundeck/hardtop Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

 

[DavidM]

There are a number of reasons for this. The most common is that the boat was listed with one broker, the seller canceled that listing and selected another broker and the first broker never removed his listing on Yachtworld.

The other possibility is that there are several brokers who have non-exclusive listings for the same boat. These kind of listings are mostly worthless and when I was a broker in Annapolis we wouldn't take one. But they still occur.

The public version of Yachtworld doesn't tell you if it is an exclusive or non-exclusive listing but the broker's version does. So if there are multiple listings, call the broker with the lowest price and confirm that his is THE exclusive listing.

If all of them are non-exclusive listings, here is a trick that is perfectly legitimate. With the boat name if you can get it from the listing, go on the USCG web site and search for the owner. If it is federally documented (and 99.9% of these boats will be) it will be there, then write to the owner telling him you want to buy directly.

David

 

[beachbum29]

Being a real estate broker, I find your advice to be rather unethical.

I can see why you're no longer in the business.

 

[bluebyu]

What is wrong with contacting the seller directly?

Seems as if it would depend on his contract with the broker.

 

[beachbum29]

What is wrong with contacting the seller directly?

Seems as if it would depend on his contract with the broker.

Where did you find the boat?

The owners ad or the brokers ad?

With it being on Yachtworld, means which?

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

What is wrong with contacting the seller directly?

Seems as if it would depend on his contract with the broker.

Yacht brokers spent the money to advertise the boat. I agree with Beachbum. It is totally unethical to go behind the sign and deal with the owner . Let the broker work the deal and get his due payment.
If you observe a boat going by you and look up the name of the owner, I wouldn't think that is a problem.

 

[Conrad]

Yacht brokers spent the money to advertise the boat. I agree with Beachbum. It is totally unethical to go behind the sign and deal with the owner . Let the broker work the deal and get his due payment.
If you observe a boat going by you and look up the name of the owner, I wouldn't think that is a problem.

Also agree; brokers generally put in time, money and effort into marketing a vessel. Cutting them out is unethical and can be cause for legal action.

If the broker is a complete bonehead (it happens in every profession) there is usually a 90 day clause that you have to wait out and then all options are on the table. In today's market that could also lead to a further price reduction.

 

[Daddyo]

DJ,
Your being a former broker I'm amazed you would give that advice. The owner in signing a non-exclusive listing has still contracted with the broker to pay them a commission for a sale to a buyer obtained through the broker's efforts. Thank God your not a broker anymore. It's amazing how easy my job is when I'm competing with brokers like you. Sorry but you deserved this.

 

[Baker]

This is what is called an "open listing". Which means ANYONE can sell the boat.....including the owner. If the owner sells the boat on his own, then no commission is paid to ANY broker...listing or otherwise. In a "normal" listing(ie an exclusive or "central" listing"), the listing broker is always going to get a commission. He will get all of it or split it if he "Co-brokers" it with another broker. Many/most brokers will not do an open listing. And many/most brokers will accept a co-broker as long as the "co-broker" reciprocates. That is ultimately what yacht brokerage is based on.

Owners usually do an open listing because they want some control over the sale of the boat. I personally think y'all are being a bit tough on DJ. It is not illegal as some have suggested. Everything Conrad says above is true if it is a central/exclusive listing....NOT an open listing. DJ's advice is based on the premise that you will get a better deal through the owner since he will not have to pay a commission. I believe this to be the risk a broker takes when he accepts(agrees to) an open listing....regardless of the ethics involved. IOW, it is the broker's "fault" if a buyer skirts the broker because that is exactly what he is agreeing to.

Now to answer another part of your question and Daddyo can help me here. There is something on the Broker side of Yachtworld that alerts a broker when there is a price change if a broker is watching a particular boat for a client. So when they change it by just $100, it puts it back at the top of a broker's watch list....or something like that. But there is a feature on the broker side of YW which could encourage a price change...ie is advantageous to the listing broker.

 

[Daddyo]

If the buyer "discovers" the boat from the broker's ad then the buyer belongs to the broker and he should not be cut out. This is obvious. Yes price changes will ping a boat listing.

 

[Jonza]

Finding a buyer/seller privately should IMHO at least render You a lower brokers fee, if You are still under contract. Did this a number of times w. real estate.

 

[angus99]

Thanks for the replies on what sounds like a touchy subject. To be clear, once I am in the market I will not be trying to screw a broker out of a legitimate commission. But when there is a $110,000 difference in two listings for the same boat, that in itself raises some ethical questions--especially when comparable boats are priced below the lower of these two listings. Outdated ad? Maybe, but there's no excuse for allowing it to remain active. I know "let the buyer beware" applies here, as it does anywhere, so I would simply run from anyone (seller or broker) associated with listings like that--just as I'd run from somebody selling a $70,000 Kia.

(Just noticed the typo in my first post; should have been "a $100K delta." Sorry.)

 

[Baker]

If the buyer "discovers" the boat from the broker's ad then the buyer belongs to the broker and he should not be cut out. This is obvious. Yes price changes will ping a boat listing.

Thanks! And I fully agree!!! And I will say that my most recent boat purchase, both my broker and the listing broker were absolutely awesome!!! And they continue to be after the purchase. Sometimes brokers get a bad name by the behavior of just a few. I can honestly say, I never would have got this deal done without those two guys!

 

[beachbum29]

If the buyer "discovers" the boat from the broker's ad then the buyer belongs to the broker and he should not be cut out. This is obvious. Yes price changes will ping a boat listing.

100% correct.

 

[beachbum29]

Thanks! And I fully agree!!! And I will say that my most recent boat purchase, both my broker and the listing broker were absolutely awesome!!! And they continue to be after the purchase. Sometimes brokers get a bad name by the behavior of just a few. I can honestly say, I never would have got this deal done without those two guys!

My most recent purchase wouldn't have happened without my broker.

 

[beachbum29]

Finding a buyer/seller privately should IMHO at least render You a lower brokers fee, if You are still under contract. Did this a number of times w. real estate.

Most for sale by owner real estate is over priced by unrealistic sellers. Proven by stats.

 

[CPseudonym]

Thanks for the replies on what sounds like a touchy subject. To be clear, once I am in the market I will not be trying to screw a broker out of a legitimate commission. But when there is a $110,000 difference in two listings for the same boat, that in itself raises some ethical questions--especially when comparable boats are priced below the lower of these two listings. Outdated ad? Maybe, but there's no excuse for allowing it to remain active. I know "let the buyer beware" applies here, as it does anywhere, so I would simply run from anyone (seller or broker) associated with listings like that--just as I'd run from somebody selling a $70,000 Kia.

(Just noticed the typo in my first post; should have been "a $100K delta." Sorry.)

We had a thread here last year by I believe a member named dswizzler where he found his boat was for sale on Yachtworld. I suspect you are seeing shill ads.

I've run across "ethical brokers" with shill ads to do the bait and switch on unsuspecting clients. So let's not pretend all brokers are as pure as the wind driven snow. I find it impossible to believe there are THAT many open listings on Yachtworld.

As an ex realtor I'd never accept a non-exclusive listing and neither would I suspect a successful and ethical yacht broker.

 

[beachbum29]

As an ex realtor I'd never accept a non-exclusive listing and neither would I suspect a successful and ethical yacht broker.

We will only accept exclusive listings.

Via IDX we display all listings on our websites that we choose.

There are plenty on unethical realtors and yacht brokers out there. They dirty up the business and give us all a bad name.

 

[Tom.B]

There are plenty on unethical realtors and yacht brokers out there. They dirty up the business and give us all a bad name.

Ain't that the truth... So you can hardly blame customers from trying to try and skirt using them.

 

[beachbum29]

Ain't that the truth... So you can hardly blame customers from trying to try and skirt using them.

We all suffer from it.

Just because a few are bad doesn't give people the right to try and screw us. They are real POS for doing it.

It's like it's ok for the public in general to be unethical?

Did I get this right?

 

[Codger2]

So let's not pretend all brokers are as pure as the wind driven snow. .

Amen, brother. Such has been my experience.

 

[beachbum29]

Amen, brother. Such has been my experience.

Has anyone stated that?

 

[Codger2]

Has anyone stated that?

Not to my knowledge but the inference has certainly been there.

Let me paint a scenario for you that happened to me about 13 years ago.

I met with a broker and communicated exactly what I was looking for in a boat. Twins, cruise at 20+ knots, Cat engines, 2 state rooms, fly bridge, cockpit, etc. Months went buy without hearing from the broker so I started a search on my own. After looking at everything in the San Diego area, I expanded the search to Newport Beach. I repeated my wants to the first brokerage house I walked into and the guy immediately said, "I have a boat out back in the water that meets with every thing you've outlined. ( I thought to myself, "man, a used car salesman.") We went down to his dock and there she was! A 42' Ocean Alexander. 20knot cruise, Cat 375s, 2 state rooms, a fly bridge and a cockpit. Not to mention "Bristol" condition! I bought the boat on the spot and days later, after a sea trial and survey, drove her the 60+ miles to San Diego.

When I got back to San Diego, I called the broker who I had listed with and told him what I had done and he flew into a rage! He wanted half the commission that was paid to the Newport Broker by the seller. I told him to take it up with that broker, which he did, to no avail.

Now, what would have been the proper thing to do in such a case. Pay the broker I signed with for doing absolutely nothing?

 

[DavidM]

Well, it looks like I have set off a s***storm. Obviously when I described contacting the owner directly I was speaking about an open listing. An open listing gives the listing broker no protection whatsoever from other entities contacting the seller and buying/brokering the boat.

I learned this "trick" from working for one of the most ethical yacht brokers in Annapolis. The owner was president of YBAA at the time. We were encouraged (tacitly) to do this. If we had a customer who was interested in an open listing (not ours, we didn't have any) then we were told to find the owner and deal directly with him if we could.

Of course since we had no contract with the buyer, he could also have stiffed us and gone directly to the seller. I suppose it happens.

The best way to avoid all of this questionable ethics dealing is to find a broker that you like and at least have a reasonable trust in and work with him exclusively. He will be able to work deals better than you, find a surveyor who is impartial, arrange financing, etc.

I realize that going around an open broker and stealing his listing sounds unethical and maybe it is in a pure sense. The world of yacht brokerage isn't so pure however.

The best way for a broker to keep it from happening to him is to not take open listings. 5 listings on Yachtworld is a pretty good indication that some of them were open. And how about the broker who kept a lost listing active. How ethical was he in creating all of this confusion about price and whether he did or did not have an exclusive listing?

When I read about the 5 listings and the mess that was obviously in play, my inclination was to find the owner and deal with him directly.

David

 

[beachbum29]

Not to my knowledge but the inference has certainly been there.

Let me paint a scenario for you that happened to me about 13 years ago.

I met with a broker and communicated exactly what I was looking for in a boat. Twins, cruise at 20+ knots, Cat engines, 2 state rooms, fly bridge, cockpit, etc. Months went buy without hearing from the broker so I started a search on my own. After looking at everything in the San Diego area, I expanded the search to Newport Beach. I repeated my wants to the first brokerage house I walked into and the guy immediately said, "I have a boat out back in the water that meets with every thing you've outlined. ( I thought to myself, "man, a used car salesman.") We went down to his dock and there she was! A 42' Ocean Alexander. 20knot cruise, Cat 375s, 2 state rooms, a fly bridge and a cockpit. Not to mention "Bristol" condition! I bought the boat on the spot and days later, after a sea trial and survey, drove her the 60+ miles to San Diego.

When I got back to San Diego, I called the broker who I had listed with and told him what I had done and he flew into a rage! He wanted half the commission that was paid to the Newport Broker by the seller. I told him to take it up with that broker, which he did, to no avail.

Now, what would have been the proper thing to do in such a case. Pay the broker I signed with for doing absolutely nothing?

You were totally within your rights to do what you did

 

[beachbum29]

Well, it looks like I have set off a s***storm. Obviously when I described contacting the owner directly I was speaking about an open listing. An open listing gives the listing broker no protection whatsoever from other entities contacting the seller and buying/brokering the boat.

I learned this "trick" from working for one of the most ethical yacht brokers in Annapolis. The owner was president of YBAA at the time. We were encouraged (tacitly) to do this. If we had a customer who was interested in an open listing (not ours, we didn't have any) then we were told to find the owner and deal directly with him if we could.

Of course since we had no contract with the buyer, he could also have stiffed us and gone directly to the seller. I suppose it happens.

The best way to avoid all of this questionable ethics dealing is to find a broker that you like and at least have a reasonable trust in and work with him exclusively. He will be able to work deals better than you, find a surveyor who is impartial, arrange financing, etc.

I realize that going around an open broker and stealing his listing sounds unethical and maybe it is in a pure sense. The world of yacht brokerage isn't so pure however.

The best way for a broker to keep it from happening to him is to not take open listings. 5 listings on Yachtworld is a pretty good indication that some of them were open. And how about the broker who kept a lost listing active. How ethical was he in creating all of this confusion about price and whether he did or did not have an exclusive listing?

When I read about the 5 listings and the mess that was obviously in play, my inclination was to find the owner and deal with him directly.

David

If you find this boat on a yacht brokers ad, the correct thing to do is contact that broker for info and sales assistance.

I would walk away from a listing like that. Something is wrong.

 

[jukesy]

If you find this boat on a yacht brokers ad, the correct thing to do is contact that broker for info and sales assistance.

I think your missing DM's point here. If there are multiple listings of the same boat then what broker do you contact? I was looking at a 77 footer, but it is listed with 4 different brokers and apparently it's located in several different places in the world too, so I walked! Next time, I'll contact the seller directly. He can work it out with whatever broker. His deal, not mine...

 

[beachbum29]

I think your missing DM's point here. If there are multiple listings of the same boat then what broker do you contact? I was looking at a 77 footer, but it is listed with 4 different brokers and apparently it's located in several different places in the world too, so I walked! Next time, I'll contact the seller directly. He can work it out with whatever broker. His deal, not mine...

Not missing the point. Multiple listed boats are usually owned by non cooperative owners.

Unless its a 1 of a kind, which none are, move on.

 

[beachbum29]

We can sit here and list scenarios.

Bottom line.

If you see the boat listed with a broker, contact them.

Most have exclusive listings.

Otherwise, be a scumbag, we get paid anyway.

 

[Codger2]

Otherwise, be a scumbag, we get paid anyway.

??? So much for seeing the other guy's point.