Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-11-2018, 03:26 PM   #21
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,641
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
5. If water in great amounts is available and you dont have foam or professional expertise, pump water (from a safe distance) on nearby slips to prevent heat damage until things get better.
What is the safe distance to be standing from exploding propane tanks? That would be my concern, and why I wouldn't rush forward if things were on their way to being fully engulfed.
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" MurrayM
MurrayM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 03:31 PM   #22
Newbie
 
City: St. Augustine, Fl
Vessel Name: Tanuki
Vessel Model: Great Harbour N-37
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 3
We had just tied up on the same dock and checked in when we heard a loud ďboomĒ and within 30 seconds this boat was fully involved. Without proper firefighting gear it would have been hard to get close enough to use a water hose to cool the other boat that got scorched, we could feel the heat from the tiki bar several hundred feet away. One of the neighbors helped pull a woman from the boat, they were all evacuated from the boat very quickly. Firefighters were able to contain and put out the fire pretty quickly after arriving on the scene.
Jerry Williams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 04:10 PM   #23
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 23,960
Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayM View Post
What is the safe distance to be standing from exploding propane tanks? That would be my concern, and why I wouldn't rush forward if things were on their way to being fully engulfed.
safe distance would include a pretty good barrier to stand behind unless your water throw was 100 feet or more...plus it involves what kind of gear you are wearing.

....and it was more about pumping water on surrounding boats to keep heat damage down than putting the fire out which is unlikely.

that advice is by no means scientific, just from my experience.... maybe a better trained firefighter has better numbers.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 05:09 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
Capecodder's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod, MA or Fort Myers, FL
Vessel Name: Osprey
Vessel Model: Her Shine. Newburyport
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 376
Statement from Last Mango. I do not know anyone involved, a good friend from Fort Pierce sent this to me.

Close call for the Last Mango this evening. The ‘Gypsy Tours’ boat, powered by a 350hp gasoline engine and docks on our north side, pulled into her slip today around 5:300PM and proceeded to blow up and then burn to the waterline. 1st Mate Joey Mariano and Capt Rich of Fins Sportfishing saved the Mango from certain destruction by getting her out of her slip immediately after the Gypsy exploded. Their actions were at great risk to themselves and they are the heroes of the day!!!
Our port side windows melted and I’m not sure how our brand new Awl Grip paint job faired but all in all we lucked out.
Joeys face was slightly burned as he slipped off the dock lines on the fire side. The Captain of Gypsy Tours in hospital! Passengers of Gypsy Tours were still on board and explosion knocked at least two in the water. Before moving the Mango to safety and while the Gypsy was engulfed in flames, 1st Joey Mariano saved another passenger who trapped on the bow of the Gypsy by somehow hauling him to safety across a substantial space.
The Viking boat in the slip on the other side of Gypsy was not moved and sustained significant damage as #firefighters contained the blaze. If not for them the whole dock could have easily gone up in flames one boat at a time.
Capecodder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 05:32 PM   #25
Guru
 
Fletcher500's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Vessel Model: Helmsman 4304
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,580
I wonít Sunday afternoon Quarterback without all of the facts, but a few thoughts based on a 3 min video..

A very good example why diesel is better than gas.

I saw no reason why that boat crew should not have removed their boat from the situation.

PSneeld, thanks for that. Good reminders. Many people donít realize foam is needed to fully Extinguish a fire involving fiberglass Which is essentially oil in solid form.

As noted by others, water can be used to cool and control adjacent areas and boats. But, ordinary citizens are not Trained in the use of hose streams and using them may result in a liability for the marina if someone were to get hurt. IE, the fire department or other trained responders are the folks that apply the hose streams.

Dynamic situation...people need to do the best they can based on split second decisions.
Fletcher500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 05:58 PM   #26
Guru
 
High Wire's Avatar
 
City: Cape May, NJ and Englewood, FL
Vessel Name: Irish Lady
Vessel Model: Monk 36
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post

....and it was more about pumping water on surrounding boats to keep heat damage down than putting the fire out which is unlikely.
You can see when the FD charges the hose the first thing they put water on was the Viking. They used their one line to stop the loss of the neighboring boat. Only after totally soaking down the Viking sides did they go for extinguishing the original boat. That's called protecting the exposures. What is already burned is lost. The original boat was a total loss before they rolled up. The first -in engine only has about 500 gal (~5 minutes) of water and you have to choose where it goes for the best use. You use that to save the unburned. They did exactly the right thing. Textbook.
__________________
Archie
Irish Lady
1984 Monk 36 Hull #46
Currently in Cape May NJ
High Wire is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 08:40 PM   #27
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 23,960
just a reminder, most boat fires srart from electrical issues, not fuel related.

once a fire starts, doesnt matter if gas or diesel.

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2015...boat-fires.asp
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 09:01 PM   #28
Guru
 
Fletcher500's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Vessel Model: Helmsman 4304
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,580
Fires of electrical origin are also a leading cause shoreside, however...

The FP of gasoline is very low, so the vapor can be ignited very easily.

The FP of diesel is 125F so a fuel spill is not necessarily going to ignite in all cases.

The hazard of a gas boat is much greater than a diesel boat for that reason. It is the reason the vast majority of recreational boat fires are gas, not diesel.
Fletcher500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 05:58 AM   #29
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 23,960
There are so many more gas boats so you do have to pick through the statistics more carefully. I cant say what percentage of fuel started fires are directly attributable to its flashpoint.

Sure gas is more dangerous by nature, but gas boats are usually only more dangerous if operated or maintained improperly.

No need to be afraid of them, just careful.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 06:47 AM   #30
Guru
 
diver dave's Avatar
 
City: Palm Coast, FL
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher500 View Post
I wonít Sunday afternoon Quarterback without all of the facts, but a few thoughts based on a 3 min video..



A very good example why diesel is better than gas.



I saw no reason why that boat crew should not have removed their boat from the situation.



PSneeld, thanks for that. Good reminders. Many people donít realize foam is needed to fully Extinguish a fire involving fiberglass Which is essentially oil in solid form.



As noted by others, water can be used to cool and control adjacent areas and boats. But, ordinary citizens are not Trained in the use of hose streams and using them may result in a liability for the marina if someone were to get hurt. IE, the fire department or other trained responders are the folks that apply the hose streams.



Dynamic situation...people need to do the best they can based on split second decisions.


Looked to me like just a quint squirting water thru a rubber hose.
diver dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 10:06 AM   #31
Guru
 
Fletcher500's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Vessel Model: Helmsman 4304
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
There are so many more gas boats so you do have to pick through the statistics more carefully. I cant say what percentage of fuel started fires are directly attributable to its flashpoint.

Sure gas is more dangerous by nature, but gas boats are usually only more dangerous if operated or maintained improperly.

No need to be afraid of them, just careful.
An enclosed space with gasoline and electrical components, is more dangerous than the same enclosed space with a boat that has diesel. That is a fact.
Fletcher500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 10:12 AM   #32
Guru
 
Fletcher500's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Vessel Model: Helmsman 4304
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by diver dave View Post
Looked to me like just a quint squirting water thru a rubber hose.
Where did I state in my previous post that anyone was applying a hose stream in this fire? If you are going to quote me, letís at least be accurate.
Fletcher500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 10:56 AM   #33
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 23,960
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher500 View Post
An enclosed space with gasoline and electrical components, is more dangerous than the same enclosed space with a boat that has diesel. That is a fact.
dont disagree, just use useful, not random stats.

most stats that are analyzed versus just reported show a completely different story for specific situations rather than general situations.

ie.... gas boats above/ below a certain size, age, years of owner experience, outboard, inboard, I/O, when/whete fire started, why, etc, etc....

narrow those stats to a boaters particular situation and they barely start to get useful.

again, sure gas is a more dangerous fuel....but ABYC only suggests how to make it idiot proof, not get rid of it.... how much more conservative can you get than ABYC... even the USCG that suggests you wear PFDs all the time is behind ABYC in overcontrolling our boating lives.

but in reality for most boaters who have survived gas boats for 50 plus years, they would chuckle at this fearmongering...except its a norm on TF.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 12:36 PM   #34
Guru
 
Donna's Avatar
 
City: Palm Coast
Vessel Name: Southerly
Vessel Model: 1986 Marine Trader 36' Sundeck
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,228
I think the problem is there are about 12 different accounts of what actually happened. I have been following this story on several news agencies. “People in the water, no people in the water, only 2 onboard, several onboard, some in the water, etc.” I saw no evidence that supports mangos claim of rescuing anyone from the bow as stated in their release. So, what really happened? I have no clue. Was there propane onboard? Did the gas engine explode? Was it human error? Was it mechanical? Too many questions and accounts of what may have happened.
Donna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 05:39 PM   #35
Guru
 
Fletcher500's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Vessel Model: Helmsman 4304
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,580
PS, I am not saying all gas boats are dynamite and will explode, and I definitely don’t espouse the fear mongering route. The fact is, the gas boat owner has a heck of a better chance being killed during his drive to the marina as opposed to being on his boat. Most TF people are careful and would take the needed precautions. The problem is the GP with gas boats often don’t, so they are more at risk. I have personally seen the results as well.
Fletcher500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 06:13 PM   #36
TF Site Team
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 12,136
Not saying gas isnít safe, but speaking from direct personal experience. In the CG Aux boat crew program to qualify as crew you used to use a fire extinguisher to put out a fire. We would go to a local FD and they floated some diesel on water, similar to a boat leaking fuel, they tried for about 15 minutes to light the diesel. Tried matches and finally used a road flare. The diesel would not light cold. I suggested putting an ounce of gas in the pan. The fire chief said it was too dangerous. After trying everything we could think of he finally put an ounce of gas in the pan. It went up like a flare. We would use an extinguisher and put it out person by person. Yes after the initial start, the hot diesel would reignite with the road flare. At the time I owned a gas powered boat. I had already been careful about fumes, after this demonstration I was really really careful with venting the bilge, etc. i am very glad that we now have a diesel powered boat. Yes we could still have a fire, but the likelihood is much less.
Comodave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 07:42 PM   #37
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 23,960
not really....the possibility might be less but "much less" is a stretch in my opinion....the way boat fires start is not the same as throwing a match in a pan.

CAREFULLY. analyze the stats at several levels, not the idiotic single level they are published at.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 07:58 PM   #38
TF Site Team
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 12,136
I didnít say it was the same thing as throwing a match into gas. I was comparing the relative ease of ignition of the two fuels. I never said gas was not safe. However if you do get a spark in the engine room, I would rather have it in my diesel boat than in one of my many previous gas powered boats. I have witnessed a boat explosion first hand. It was determined to be a bad electrical connection in the engine compartment. It killed 4 people and injured another 4. Strangely 3 people had no injuries of any significance. Is it one in a thousand or one in a million, I am not an actuarial so I donít know. But I do know that diesel boats are safer. Ask your insurance company. Are gas boats not safe, not necessarily.
Comodave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 08:02 PM   #39
Guru
 
City: Chicago/Montrose Harbor
Vessel Name: Sea Jay
Vessel Model: Non Trawler ;-) Ask me if it matters LOL
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 517
If insurance companies thought the odds were against gas engines on boats, weíd see it in rates- though since there are hundreds of thousands of them, it appears the odds are in the insurance companies favor?
Gmarr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2018, 08:18 PM   #40
Guru
 
Fletcher500's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Vessel Model: Helmsman 4304
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,580
PS- your initial comments about this situation were good, but now you are making general statements regarding the technical aspects of an area you are not fully versed in. Google lower explosive limit (LEL) of gasoline in an enclosed space and the difference between fire point, flash point, and auto ignition temp of various types of fuels. You are asking about statistics of gas boats that may, or may not be available. I can tell you from 30 years as a Registered Professional Engineer (PE) in Fire Protection that the hazard is greater. I base this from my personal experience working with large scale industrial shore side projects many of which involved flammable liquids, as well as other special hazards. I am going to guess you will dismiss this as well, so I will tap out at this point.
Fletcher500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012