Boat buying blasphemy

[bayview]

Over many decades of boating on both coasts I have concluded that from a usability standpoint most modern plastic boats are equivalent.

Regardless of brand their owners use them similarly in similar conditions and on similar cruises. N.B. I am not talking passagemaking or crossing the Columbia river bar on the ebb. Just normal coastal cruising in settled weather.

Sure they are built differently, some stronger than others, some finished better or easier to maintain than others some with more creature comforts but I can't remember any case where that really mattered when the boats were used reasonably by owners smart enough to avoid dangerous conditions.

So while we endlessly debate boat brands look around and see all the other brands in your marina and waterways doing the same things seemingly independent of brand.

 

[aboatman]

"Plastic boats"?

There is a difference and while most boats will get you from "A" to "B", some are better suited than others. Some go fast and use a lot of fuel, some only go slow and use far less fuel. Most of the fast boats don't handle well at slower speeds.

Some are much more useable for multi day or longer cruising. They are designed so the berth doesn't have to be converted to a dining table and back.

Some boats have very poor access to the bow or side decks for anchoring and docking.

There is a difference.

 

[GFC]

I tend to agree.....to a point.


An example: I've always felt that the bigger Bayliners (motor yacht sizes) offered a lot of boat for the money. They're spacious, well built, comfortable and represent a good value.


That being said, I had the opportunity to help a guy take his 58' Bayliner from Seattle to San Francisco. On the journey we had everything from calm seas with light swells to 6'-8' seas with a wind chop on top. The boat felt like a cork the way it was being bounced around. I asked the owner what the dry weight of the boat was and he said (IIRC) 48,000 pounds.


His boat was about the same size as mine and about 1.5' wider but is almost 10,000 pounds lighter. That makes a huge difference in the ride.


So I guess my point is that there may not be obvious, visible differences from one brand to another, there can be many differences that you don't see.

 

[DavidM]

Please check out this pic of a downeaster after getting pounded while coming in at Oregon Inlet from the Atlantic. Sure this is a one in maybe a million happening, and I might be smart enough not to try that stupidity, but it sure would be nice to have a boat that wouldn't get bashed in like this.

Well sorry, it seems I can't find the pic on my computer. It shows the entire front windshield, frame and all bashed in due to the force of heavy seas hitting it. And downeasters are supposed to be built strong!

And FWIW, my Mainship Pilot 34 which the downeaster community turns their nose up for poor build quality, has an aluminum sheet in the front that ties the three front windshields together. I suspect mine would have come through ok in those conditions.

David

 

[psneeld]

Other than a handful, I have never thought production boats as strong.

All the "tanks" people describe make me chuckle....tbey have never truly repaired or mostly dismantled one.

Heck tbey brag about hull thickness, until you show them a Bayliner or Sea Ray hull core thicker and better laid up than theirs.

Quiets them right down....

 

[SeaMoose]

A better way to express the sentiment of the OP would be “You can have a lot of fun on a crap boat, don’t let it stop you from enjoying this wonderful hobby”

That being said if you have a crap boat please check the weather first [emoji79]

 

[Conrad]

I tend to agree with Bayview.

When I look around my marina, or scan the crowded anchorages, there are all shapes and sizes of boats, and they are all intact.

I think the key is that the owners are reasonable about watching weather conditions and only go out in suitable conditions for their boat.

 

[Lou_tribal]

I tend to agree with Bayview.

When I look around my marina, or scan the crowded anchorages, there are all shapes and sizes of boats, and they are all intact.

I think the key is that the owners are reasonable about watching weather conditions and only go out in suitable conditions for their boat.

Or not going out at all [emoji1]

L

 

[JustBob]

I guess your point is similar to looking at any roadway. At any given time, there are vehicles made of metal, with four rubber tires, and they are each conveying their occupants to a destination.

The folks in the high end cars are perhaps enjoying the journey more than a lower end car, and those folks are enjoying far more than a motorist in an old klunker.

But I see little to this point.

Are you saying we should not care about features/attributes of various boats since in "settled conditions" we can get from A to B?

 

[BandB]

I see it differently. If the point is that most boats are of decent quality today, then I'll agree quickly. However, the differences in boats is extreme and they are used in many different ways. They might all seem the same to you, but then something tells me you're just looking at very similar boats. I can't say though that the usability is the same between a custom SF, a production trawler type boat, a sport boat, a high performance boat, a center console. Even narrowing it to a small group of boats like Fleming, Kadey Krogen, Nordhavn, American Tug, and Marlow. There is very little similarity between just those five boats and they're about as close a group as you can find.

 

[sunchaser]

Not for one second do I consider the build quality of my DeFever the equal of a Fleming, Nordhavn or Sabre. A trip to a boat show easily illustrates the differences.

Nor are all FRP products or hull layup methods the same for even new boats. The list of quality differences amongst brands and eras can be significant. A detailed look at a new KK 52 vs a 25 year old KK54 is like night and day from the standpoint of materials, design, equipment and space utilization.

Kinda like saying my old 1985 Lincoln Continental has the same quality and engineering as a 2018 model. Oh well, Happy New Year.

 

[NewbieFromNJ]

In general I find that higher end boats are the heavier boats. Is there a correlation between how heavy a boat is and it’s seaworthiness?

 

[Benthic2]

You can't assume all boats are equivalent because you look around your marina and see different types of boats. Obviously all boats in the marina are still viable....or they wouldn't still be in the marina. Take a look at a random sample of boats that were made 40 years ago, and then go see if the mix in your marina is the same. In otherwords....if Chris Craft sold twice as many boats as Egg Harbor in 1980, are there still twice as many in use today ? The difference in new boats may be marginal, but I think age will highlight the differences.

 

[Lou_tribal]

The way I see the comment is more about usage. A boat that is working hard has scars whatever its quality.

L

 

[Tom.B]

You can't assume all boats are equivalent because you look around your marina and see different types of boats. Obviously all boats in the marina are still viable....or they wouldn't still be in the marina. Take a look at a random sample of boats that were made 40 years ago, and then go see if the mix in your marina is the same. In otherwords....if Chris Craft sold twice as many boats as Egg Harbor in 1980, are there still twice as many in use today ? The difference in new boats may be marginal, but I think age will highlight the differences.

+1
I don’t mean any offense by this, but someone that thinks that because there are boats of all makes still in the marina puts all boats on equal quality footing must have Harbor Freight tools in their tool box and thinks they are still high quality because they can still drive a screw. Sorry, but there ARE differences... and sometime big ones.

 

[Islanddreamer]

The bigger shame is all of the boats in marinas that never move or leave the slip, of owners that never visit. Those boats perform well in the slip.

 

[Donna]

Oh I can’t agree with the OP on this. I have owned a Chris craft, sea ray and now a marine trader. There are huge differences in just those 3. The Chris craft I wouldn’t consider taking to the Bahamas. The sea ray went to the Bahamas albeit a smaller boat. The marine trader went to the Bahamas and goes out every few weeks. The reason? She has a keel, handles the best of the three I had. I’m not talking aesthetics here. I’m talking engine performance and handling. BIG difference. In bayliner, it’s mostly aesthetics. The ones in my marina don’t move. Ever.

 

[JustBob]

+1
I don’t mean any offense by this, but someone that thinks that because there are boats of all makes still in the marina puts all boats on equal quality footing must have Harbor Freight tools in their tool box and thinks they are still high quality because they can still drive a screw. Sorry, but there ARE differences... and sometime big ones.

Ha ha, Harbor Tools analogy, good one.

 

[Ken E.]

The bigger shame is all of the boats in marinas that never move or leave the slip, of owners that never visit. Those boats perform well in the slip.

Bingo

 

[Nomad Willy]

Sunchaser wrote;
“Kinda like saying my old 1985 Lincoln Continental has the same quality and engineering as a 2018 model. Oh well, Happy New Year.”

New things are better?
That’s often an assumption and very often it’s true. But very often it’s not.
There isn’t a car on the road now (I’ll bet) that is as comfortable as that Lincoln. And that’s a very important part of the car’s design.
The body parts of new cars are weak. If you were to fall and hit the fender or door of a new car there would likely be expensive damage.
New cars have tires that are very noisy. Old cars were far more quiet and smooth.

Boats are the same in this regard. Wood boats were quieter. But more important they were visually warm and inviting. FG boats and especially metal boats fall way short on this very important quality of a pleasure boat.
Metal boats and FG plastic boats very often (perhaps usually) are not fair. That is the surfaces of the hull and house is not flat or (most often) curved. But the curve is not even, constant or “fair”. Most prominent is the waveness on the sides of steel vessels. It matters very little on freighters or warships but is unsightly on a pleasure boat. But average wood boats were almost always fair.

When it comes to boats and cars if I could buy 1955 models I probably would. I’m an old man though and my tastes lean toward the past frequently but industry and consumers have turned their backs on many elements of quality in vehicles.

 

[markpierce]

...Wood boats were quieter. But more important they were visually warm and inviting. FG boats and especially metal boats fall way short on this very important quality of a pleasure boat.
Metal boats and FG plastic boats very often (perhaps usually) are not fair. That is the surfaces of the hull and house is not flat or (most often) curved. But the curve is not even, constant or “fair”. Most prominent is the waveness on the sides of steel vessels. It matters very little on freighters or warships but is unsightly on a pleasure boat. But average wood boats were almost always fair.
...

Most all of the exposed interior surfaces (except windows and doors) are non-metal in my steel boat. Overall, the interior is "warm."

Don't understand your waviness theory.

 

[koliver]

Eric says:"
New things are better?
That’s often an assumption and very often it’s true. But very often it’s not.
There isn’t a car on the road now (I’ll bet) that is as comfortable as that Lincoln. And that’s a very important part of the car’s design.
The body parts of new cars are weak. If you were to fall and hit the fender or door of a new car there would likely be expensive damage.
New cars have tires that are very noisy. Old cars were far more quiet and smooth."

Eric: Talk about rose coloured reminiscence!

When in my youth I had a great car of the time. One that presently sells, in fully restored condition, for $+-80k. The car I bought last year, 12 yrs old at the time, for $12k, is better on every measure that I can think of.
My old tires were quiet? Only because the sound was drowned out by other noises.
Body panels dent more easily? OK, maybe due to cutting the weight to 1/3 of what it was in the old (60s) days.
I admit total ignorance of the alleged comfort of a 1985 Lincoln. I do have some knowledge of the comfort of newer cars. I will look forward to any opportunity to put this comparison to the test, and I doubt 1985 will win.

Boats are the same. My first boat was a custom build, hand laid up and I was able to see the day to day progress, but still, the methods used in 1976 have been eclipsed by far better methods, vacuum infusion, properly laid conduits for the wiring and plumbing, grids of structural members, and on and on. The materials used have matured. Vinylester resins, epoxies, biaxial cloth, etc, etc.

 

[Benthic2]

With cars there has been huge improvements. It used to be something to get a car to roll over the odometer at 100k miles, now....not so much.

When was the last time anyone had to:

clean and gap their plugs
replace a muffler
have a frame welded
replace a master cylinder
blew a head gasket
had a carbeurator cleaned
put water in their battery
replaced a distributor cap
replaced a radiator or a water pump
replaced a starter/solenoid

these were pretty common back in the day, but now we just take dependable cars for granted.

 

[ranger58sb]

I admit total ignorance of the alleged comfort of a 1985 Lincoln.

Think "mobile water bed."

-Chris

 

[FF]

"Don't understand your waviness theory."

My guess is his theory comes from observing smaller metal boats.

Being bashed a bit at sea the thin metal plating (3/16 or so) of a small boat (to keep it light) will show ribs like a starving horse.

Depends mostly on the service the boat sees.

 

[Group9]

The bigger shame is all of the boats in marinas that never move or leave the slip, of owners that never visit. Those boats perform well in the slip.

 

[aboatman]

.......................... So while we endlessly debate boat brands look around and see all the other brands in your marina and waterways doing the same things seemingly independent of brand.

I see a lot of "sport cruisers" (think Sea Ray, Bayliner, etc.) in my marina but the folks take them out for day cruises and sometimes a weekend spent at a marina 70 miles away. They seldom anchor overnight and never go more than one day's cruise from home.

On the contrary, we take our trawler and go as far and for as long as we want. That is what it was designed and built for.

That said, it wasn't built to cross oceans, that's a different type of boat entirely.

 

[Group9]

Just walking through my marina, and looking at the boats there, is pretty good evidence, that they are not, all the same. The difference in quality of build, and quality of design, is often pretty easy to spot without ever stepping aboard,

That said, everybody doesn't do the same things with their boat, and doesn't need the same boat. We have one boat in our marina, that looks like it would be fun as hell to take up a river or in some protected waters for a party. And, I see it leaving to do that quite often. But, I wouldn't want to be twenty miles offshore in any kind of seas in it.

 

[Cigatoo]

Ha ha, Harbor Tools analogy, good one.

Harbor Freight tools sink every bit as good as the SK’s. You can take that to the bank!

 

[ljk]

Famous boat saying

In general I find that higher end boats are the heavier boats. Is there a correlation between how heavy a boat is and it’s seaworthiness?

I like this one almost as much as Break Out Another Thousand:

"THERE'S NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT"

The last time this came to mind, I was on an "multi-hundred thousand dollar" center console Yellowfin (light boat) pounding through 4 foot seas for 2 hours. How I wished I was back on an old 38 or 40 foot Betram or Viking (heavy boats)!