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Old 12-29-2017, 09:32 PM   #21
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...Wood boats were quieter. But more important they were visually warm and inviting. FG boats and especially metal boats fall way short on this very important quality of a pleasure boat.
Metal boats and FG plastic boats very often (perhaps usually) are not fair. That is the surfaces of the hull and house is not flat or (most often) curved. But the curve is not even, constant or “fair”. Most prominent is the waveness on the sides of steel vessels. It matters very little on freighters or warships but is unsightly on a pleasure boat. But average wood boats were almost always fair.
...
Most all of the exposed interior surfaces (except windows and doors) are non-metal in my steel boat. Overall, the interior is "warm."

Don't understand your waviness theory.
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:32 PM   #22
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Eric says:"
New things are better?
Thatís often an assumption and very often itís true. But very often itís not.
There isnít a car on the road now (Iíll bet) that is as comfortable as that Lincoln. And thatís a very important part of the carís design.
The body parts of new cars are weak. If you were to fall and hit the fender or door of a new car there would likely be expensive damage.
New cars have tires that are very noisy. Old cars were far more quiet and smooth."

Eric: Talk about rose coloured reminiscence!

When in my youth I had a great car of the time. One that presently sells, in fully restored condition, for $+-80k. The car I bought last year, 12 yrs old at the time, for $12k, is better on every measure that I can think of.
My old tires were quiet? Only because the sound was drowned out by other noises.
Body panels dent more easily? OK, maybe due to cutting the weight to 1/3 of what it was in the old (60s) days.
I admit total ignorance of the alleged comfort of a 1985 Lincoln. I do have some knowledge of the comfort of newer cars. I will look forward to any opportunity to put this comparison to the test, and I doubt 1985 will win.

Boats are the same. My first boat was a custom build, hand laid up and I was able to see the day to day progress, but still, the methods used in 1976 have been eclipsed by far better methods, vacuum infusion, properly laid conduits for the wiring and plumbing, grids of structural members, and on and on. The materials used have matured. Vinylester resins, epoxies, biaxial cloth, etc, etc.
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Old 12-30-2017, 03:48 AM   #23
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With cars there has been huge improvements. It used to be something to get a car to roll over the odometer at 100k miles, now....not so much.

When was the last time anyone had to:

clean and gap their plugs
replace a muffler
have a frame welded
replace a master cylinder
blew a head gasket
had a carbeurator cleaned
put water in their battery
replaced a distributor cap
replaced a radiator or a water pump
replaced a starter/solenoid

these were pretty common back in the day, but now we just take dependable cars for granted.
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:09 AM   #24
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I admit total ignorance of the alleged comfort of a 1985 Lincoln.

Think "mobile water bed."

-Chris
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:17 AM   #25
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"Don't understand your waviness theory."

My guess is his theory comes from observing smaller metal boats.

Being bashed a bit at sea the thin metal plating (3/16 or so) of a small boat (to keep it light) will show ribs like a starving horse.

Depends mostly on the service the boat sees.
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:30 AM   #26
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The bigger shame is all of the boats in marinas that never move or leave the slip, of owners that never visit. Those boats perform well in the slip.
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:32 AM   #27
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.......................... So while we endlessly debate boat brands look around and see all the other brands in your marina and waterways doing the same things seemingly independent of brand.
I see a lot of "sport cruisers" (think Sea Ray, Bayliner, etc.) in my marina but the folks take them out for day cruises and sometimes a weekend spent at a marina 70 miles away. They seldom anchor overnight and never go more than one day's cruise from home.

On the contrary, we take our trawler and go as far and for as long as we want. That is what it was designed and built for.

That said, it wasn't built to cross oceans, that's a different type of boat entirely.
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:37 AM   #28
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Just walking through my marina, and looking at the boats there, is pretty good evidence, that they are not, all the same. The difference in quality of build, and quality of design, is often pretty easy to spot without ever stepping aboard,

That said, everybody doesn't do the same things with their boat, and doesn't need the same boat. We have one boat in our marina, that looks like it would be fun as hell to take up a river or in some protected waters for a party. And, I see it leaving to do that quite often. But, I wouldn't want to be twenty miles offshore in any kind of seas in it.
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Old 12-30-2017, 12:28 PM   #29
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Ha ha, Harbor Tools analogy, good one.
Harbor Freight tools sink every bit as good as the SKís. You can take that to the bank!
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Old 12-30-2017, 12:36 PM   #30
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Famous boat saying

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Originally Posted by NewbieFromNJ View Post
In general I find that higher end boats are the heavier boats. Is there a correlation between how heavy a boat is and itís seaworthiness?
I like this one almost as much as Break Out Another Thousand:

"THERE'S NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT"

The last time this came to mind, I was on an "multi-hundred thousand dollar" center console Yellowfin (light boat) pounding through 4 foot seas for 2 hours. How I wished I was back on an old 38 or 40 foot Betram or Viking (heavy boats)!
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Old 12-30-2017, 12:39 PM   #31
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Think "mobile water bed."

-Chris
Chris,
Would you rather sleep on the floor than a waterbed?

Well I failed.
I was trying to point out that there are some things on older vehicles that were better. Not to imply that old boats and cars were better overall. Certianly not.

There was at least one steel pleasureboat before 1950 but it was so heavy it didnít last long. And re Marks comment all steel boats are covered w wood, fabrics and plastic because the essence of the parent material is so objectionable.

And generally speaking modern cars ride like a buckboard compared to older cars. A 1954 Dodge rode really nice but had poor handling. Not for a minute do I think the old Dodge is better overall as transportation.

Keith,
Your comment sounds like a present day boater or TF members whining about painting or varnishing. In the 50ís Saturdays was car maintenance day in England and similar in the US.

I sold my 73 Buick and drive an 06 Avalon. Neither one was/is perfect. My wifeís VW Golf just broke itís timing belt. Itís a great car and she loves it but I think itís scrap now. None of the older cars even had timing belts. Not all is better.
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Old 12-30-2017, 12:44 PM   #32
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I like this one almost as much as Break Out Another Thousand:

"THERE'S NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT"

The last time this came to mind, I was on an "multi-hundred thousand dollar" center console Yellowfin (light boat) pounding through 4 foot seas for 2 hours. How I wished I was back on an old 38 or 40 foot Betram or Viking (heavy boats)!
There is a reason some sell those old heavy boats and opt for ones 3X faster.

Though some go back to the old "gold" standard for a reason also.

Another issue with boats like Yellowfins.....a lot of boaters dont know how to run them in snotty conditions to get the best ride. Not saying your experience was because of that....but many near sellers after riding with the right skipoers wind up keeping them.
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Old 12-30-2017, 01:01 PM   #33
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And generally speaking modern cars ride like a buckboard compared to older cars. A 1954 Dodge rode really nice but had poor handling. Not for a minute do I think the old Dodge is better overall as transportation.
I know some, me included, that would not necessarily agree. Yes modern car have better handling, all electronic traction control, almost impossible to get them drifting. Does this make them more enjoyable to drive? Depends for who, for most of consumer yes, for me surely not. Try to jump in an old school Caterham and you will feel the difference between driving and being drived.

Boat wise yes modern boat are maybe more reliable (not even sure) but being reliable and riding with style are different things.

So better or not really depends on your own preference and what you consider the most important, just a personal consideration and obviously not objective.

L
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Old 12-30-2017, 01:05 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ljk View Post
I like this one almost as much as Break Out Another Thousand:

"THERE'S NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT"

The last time this came to mind, I was on an "multi-hundred thousand dollar" center console Yellowfin (light boat) pounding through 4 foot seas for 2 hours. How I wished I was back on an old 38 or 40 foot Betram or Viking (heavy boats)!
In most vehicles theres lots of different situations for the weight to be perfect in. Trawlers most of the time are too heavy and would be better off loosing a few thousand pounds. And at times when there are only small waves or ďchopĒ mor weight would be welcome. We went from a 4000lb boat to a 16000lb boat and we now experence a much more pleasant and slower motion.
So at any one moment you may prefer more or less weight.

I remember a conversation in a cafe in Juneau whereas two men were arguing about their new boats. They were shipped up by barge so the weight of each was a known and they were the same length and width. One guy was sure his boat was better because it was heavier. The two boats were a Bayliner and a Reinelle. The R was the heavier boat. I was betting on the B but at times Iíd choose the R.

But to the Question Iíd say lighter is better until itís too light forr what it was designed for ... or too heavy.
Most boats aquire a lot of weight over time and several owners. If your boat performs badly fuel burn or speed wise or handles poorly or even dangerously in following seas you may have an obse boat.

Most boats are designed for a certain weight range. Consult w the dealer or directly w the designer for a more objective answer.
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Old 12-30-2017, 01:09 PM   #35
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I know some, me included, that would not necessarily agree. Yes modern car have better handling, all electronic traction control, almost impossible to get them drifting. Does this make them more enjoyable to drive? Depends for who, for most of consumer yes, for me surely not. Try to jump in an old school Caterham and you will feel the difference between driving and being drived.

Boat wise yes modern boat are maybe more reliable (not even sure) but being reliable and riding with style are different things.

So better or not really depends on your own preference and what you consider the most important, just a personal consideration and obviously not objective.

L
Lou,
If you drive sideways you better get a modern car.
But an older car may be more fun and easier to control.
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Old 12-30-2017, 01:14 PM   #36
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Lou,
If you drive sideways you better get a modern car.
But an older car may be more fun and easier to control.
Indeed like you said it all about fun

L
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Old 12-30-2017, 01:30 PM   #37
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Chris,
Would you rather sleep on the floor than a waterbed?

Nope, but then I also try to avoid sleeping while driving, too.



I lament the lost size and mass of many older cars. For me, a "full size" car is something like a big '64 Buick/Lincoln/whatever... whereas today's "full size" cars will often fit in the trunk of their older predecessors.

But I'm only thinking more weight/mass and size (crush zones) are good because other people keep crashing into us. I'd prefer an Abrams. Maybe with a cow-catcher to better wade through all the debris created by the canon as somebody crosses the center line towards us...

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Old 12-30-2017, 03:17 PM   #38
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Sunchaser wrote;
“Kinda like saying my old 1985 Lincoln Continental has the same quality and engineering as a 2018 model. Oh well, Happy New Year.”

New things are better?
That’s often an assumption and very often it’s true. But very often it’s not.
There isn’t a car on the road now (I’ll bet) that is as comfortable as that Lincoln. And that’s a very important part of the car’s design.
The body parts of new cars are weak. If you were to fall and hit the fender or door of a new car there would likely be expensive damage.
New cars have tires that are very noisy. Old cars were far more quiet and smooth.

Boats are the same in this regard. Wood boats were quieter. But more important they were visually warm and inviting. FG boats and especially metal boats fall way short on this very important quality of a pleasure boat.
Metal boats and FG plastic boats very often (perhaps usually) are not fair. That is the surfaces of the hull and house is not flat or (most often) curved. But the curve is not even, constant or “fair”. Most prominent is the waveness on the sides of steel vessels. It matters very little on freighters or warships but is unsightly on a pleasure boat. But average wood boats were almost always fair.

When it comes to boats and cars if I could buy 1955 models I probably would. I’m an old man though and my tastes lean toward the past frequently but industry and consumers have turned their backs on many elements of quality in vehicles.
When it comes to knowledge of modern cars, you are a very good boat designer.

I hope we can all agree that the contemporary equivalent of an '85 Lincoln is a 2017 Lincoln, not a 12 year-old Toyota Avalon!
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:45 PM   #39
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I know some, me included, that would not necessarily agree. Yes modern car have better handling, all electronic traction control, almost impossible to get them drifting. Does this make them more enjoyable to drive? Depends for who, for most of consumer yes, for me surely not. Try to jump in an old school Caterham and you will feel the difference between driving and being driven.
L
Part of modern car handling difference is the wretched fwd. You can do much more with rwd. Not many rwd,surprising releases are the (related) Hyundai and Kia rwd models, I`ve driven neither but reviews are good. New Alfa Giulia too, but it`s FIAT related (Fix It Again Tony).
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:59 PM   #40
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but it`s fiat related (fix it again tony).
lol!

L
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