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Old 06-10-2020, 11:33 AM   #1
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Bilge Pumps and Apps

I had VERY nasty scare. A new to me Trawler I bought about 2 weeks ago that I docked at a yacht club 3.5 hours away (until the Erie canal opens this is the closest I could get it to me.) gave my heart a hit.....................

Even though I asked the harbormaster to keep an eye on it and explained I mostly was concerned about it taking on water before I left, I said I would be back in 9 days to check on it.... well, I arrived two days ago to see it sitting very low in the water. It had taken on about 12 inches of water.

I jumped on the boat and turned the DC panel dial switch to BOTH battery banks and the bilge pump immediately kicked into action and began working to remove the water.

Thankfully the water did not reach the engines or any electricals.

BUT it really shook me up.

I talked with the surveyor who surveyed it when I bought the boat, the Captain I hired to go with us in the boat to bring it to this club, a marine electrician near the club, and my own diagnostics --- and the best I can come up with is the battery drained because we had the switch on to battery bank 1 and there was an unknown draw, so the bilge pump did not kick on for 9 days because it is wired to bank 1. Even though the boat was PLUGGED INTO TO SHORE POWER the batteries did not charge even though I thought shore power would go through the inverter and keep the battery 1 charged (there are 3 battery banks)

I plan to get a highly recommended marine electrician to install a second BILGE pump, as a back up... AND also go through the electrical system to give me an unquestionably clear understanding of what is on all the time and what is off and what is functioning with the breakers.

And I want an APP to my CELL PHONE to provide operational info on the bilge pump or give me a float level reading or some indicator of amount of water in my boat.

Im the meantime I am having yacht club manager take photos of my boat's waterline every day and text it to me and also left my keys with clear instructions on what to do with harbormaster if the waterline changes.

Man, this is a horrible feeling. I would not wish it on anywone. When you question whether or not your bilge pumps will kick on and when you have a new (old) boat and you are just learning what is going on with it but you have to leave it hours away from where you live due to CORONA VIRUS....
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Old 06-10-2020, 11:50 AM   #2
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Were you able to determine where the water was coming from? 12" in 9 days seems quite excessive.
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Old 06-10-2020, 12:21 PM   #3
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Aqualarm makes a variety of bilge alarms including a cellular solution that can signal a variety of conditions to you. Some sort of external bell or horn is a good idea too. I don't recommend their bilge pump switches though. https://aqualarm.net/bilge-alarms-switches-c-6/

Pay up and get a USS Pumpswitch, which as i learned first hand, the Aqualarm switch is a cheap knock-off of. I have had good luck with the other equipment I have bought from AQ though.

Sound like in addition to adding another bilge pump, some sort of high water back up pump is in order too.
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Old 06-10-2020, 12:30 PM   #4
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Were you able to determine where the water was coming from? 12" in 9 days seems quite excessive.
Not 100% yet.

We have some theories. Once some water weaped in from "normal places" and with no functioning bilge the theory is it lowered the boat we think so most of the water may have THEN come in from:

Rear starboard exhaust port (boat lists starboard)
Bilge ports that have no flapper valves
Rain (But no clear idea of where it entered the hull)

It IS perplexing! After I de-watered the boat I stayed on it. Unable to sleep with concern and checking the bilge every few hours, less than 1 inch of water came in and collected along the center of the keel from 6 PM monday evening to 12:30 pm Tuesday afternoon.... so there was NOT much!

We are all baffled.

Right now after 24 hours the boat sits the same as when I left it yesterday.
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Old 06-10-2020, 12:51 PM   #5
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I would jump on figuring out the source of your leak. That is not anywhere near normal, nor good. Are you sure it's not fresh water from your hotel services or your FW tank? If you are getting that much water in from outside, you have serious issues that need to be looked at now.


Sounds like you need to have your charging system and batteries reevaluated as well. They should not have been drawn down like that, and then take that long to recover.
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Old 06-10-2020, 01:19 PM   #6
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There are a variety of remote monitoring systems available. One that I've seen is Siren Marine, although I do not have hands on experience with it.

Adding a battery monitor that provides real-time current draw/charge is one of the best things you can do, you'll be able to make sure there aren't any unusual drains on the system when you prep the boat to leave it for a bit, and see if the charger is working or not with minimal fuss.
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Old 06-10-2020, 01:34 PM   #7
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The monitoring app we use is Boat Command it will notify you via cell text when ever there is a bilge pump activation, monitors DC voltage, AC input (disconnect), intrusion + geo fence which can be used as an anchor alarm at least that's what I've been told. Initial cost of the system IFRC 1/3 boat unit, install is easy, annual cost is around $70.
It also keeps a log of all monitored parameters.
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Old 06-10-2020, 01:39 PM   #8
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I have three different apps aboard that I'm testing/using. One is Siren Marine which has a wired connection into the bilge pumps so I know when they're running, how long, and can set thresholds and alerts. The app also has graphs and such.

The second is a BG-Link system that has bilge sensors that can send notifications and also run the bilge pumps. I'm less enthused about this one after having failures with their sensors, but the app and notifications are similar to Siren.

The last one is Maretron with their run indicators and N2Kview, which have been around for a while. I can post some screen shots soon if you'd like.

The Siren Marine one was the easiest to install and most reliable for the last year or so. I get texts and app alerts whenever something runs too long, runs more than X times per hour or day, and know the health of everything all along. Peace of mind.
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Old 06-10-2020, 01:46 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by stevemitchell View Post
I have three different apps aboard that I'm testing/using. One is Siren Marine which has a wired connection into the bilge pumps so I know when they're running, how long, and can set thresholds and alerts. The app also has graphs and such.

The second is a BG-Link system that has bilge sensors that can send notifications and also run the bilge pumps. I'm less enthused about this one after having failures with their sensors, but the app and notifications are similar to Siren.

The last one is Maretron with their run indicators and N2Kview, which have been around for a while. I can post some screen shots soon if you'd like.

The Siren Marine one was the easiest to install and most reliable for the last year or so. I get texts and app alerts whenever something runs too long, runs more than X times per hour or day, and know the health of everything all along. Peace of mind.
This is very good info. Thank you. I don't need screen shots. When the marine electrician calls me back I will ask him what he is most comfortable with as well.
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Old 06-10-2020, 01:58 PM   #10
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So, you have a couple of issues. Adding another bilge pump probably isn't solving your issue.

1) You have an active leak that needs to be addressed (I think that part is obvious)

2) An inverter typically draws from DC (12v/24v) and feeds AC (120V). That wouldn't normally charge DC batteries (snake eating it's own tail). There are charger/inverter combo units.

Since toggling to the other battery actuated the bilge pump, we can deduce that the bilge pump itself is functioning (hence why replacing it isn't really your solution).

I suspect that either...

A) The bilge pump was not drawing from the battery bank that was active

OR

B) The bilge pump drew down the active battery as it kept up with the active leak (This far more likely).

If B, then my next question is "Why was the active battery bank not being recharged by the battery charger?"

Battery #1 is usually START, while Battery #2 is House. Do you have the battery charger recharging the House Bank and relying on the alternators to recharge the starter battery?

If this is the case, your solution would be fix the leak and remember to keep the battery selector on the battery bank being recharged by the charger.

Too many 'What If's'. You need to dive into your systems. Blindly replacing the bilge pump is not your problem and therefore, not your appropriate solution.
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Old 06-10-2020, 02:23 PM   #11
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So, you have a couple of issues. Adding another bilge pump probably isn't solving your issue.

1) You have an active leak that needs to be addressed (I think that part is obvious)

2) An inverter typically draws from DC (12v/24v) and feeds AC (120V). That wouldn't normally charge DC batteries (snake eating it's own tail). There are charger/inverter combo units.

Since toggling to the other battery actuated the bilge pump, we can deduce that the bilge pump itself is functioning (hence why replacing it isn't really your solution).

I suspect that either...

A) The bilge pump was not drawing from the battery bank that was active

OR

B) The bilge pump drew down the active battery as it kept up with the active leak (This far more likely).

If B, then my next question is "Why was the active battery bank not being recharged by the battery charger?"

Battery #1 is usually START, while Battery #2 is House. Do you have the battery charger recharging the House Bank and relying on the alternators to recharge the starter battery?

If this is the case, your solution would be fix the leak and remember to keep the battery selector on the battery bank being recharged by the charger.

Too many 'What If's'. You need to dive into your systems. Blindly replacing the bilge pump is not your problem and therefore, not your appropriate solution.
Yes understood. I am not replacing this bilge pump. I want another as backup and want it to draw from a different battery bank. Right now there are THREE battery banks on this boat. battery 1 for engine, battery 2 for other engine and house battery.

I am having a hard time finding the leak because i stayed on the boat for nearly 20 hours watching everything closely and the bilge pump never went on and no more than an inch of water collected in the keal while I was on it. I of course manually lifted the bilge pump float and it worked fine. and checked in with the SELECTOR switch in all three positions and it worked fine in every position.

Also it does have a charger / inverter and I am baffled why it seems it did NOT work for those 9 days YET it worked fine when I got to the boat and was babysitting it.
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Old 06-10-2020, 08:31 PM   #12
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Are you sure it is not fresh water from the tanks or water input from dock?
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:15 AM   #13
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i have siren and love it . i also set a geo fence when at anchor and can see it on the map while i'm away.

your post reminded me to check on mine . although it would message me if anything is wrong .all right at your finger tips .i did have the engine room temp sensor go out but they sent me a new one fast.
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:27 AM   #14
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also it keeps an event log .it will help you figure out where your water is coming from . i know if my pump runs during thunder storms the rear deck hatch drain is clogged . you can see the pump running too frequently on the events it sent me a text for that. and every thing it monitors has a hourly daily and weekly chart to help you figure out what is happening.
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Old 06-11-2020, 07:28 AM   #15
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also it keeps an event log .it will help you figure out where your water is coming from . i know if my pump runs during thunder storms the rear deck hatch drain is clogged . you can see the pump running too frequently on the events it sent me a text for that. and every thing it monitors has a hourly daily and weekly chart to help you figure out what is happening.
THAT is what I want.

And two bilge pumps each attached to a DIFFERENT battery bank.
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Old 06-11-2020, 08:35 AM   #16
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Yes understood. I am not replacing this bilge pump. I want another as backup and want it to draw from a different battery bank. Right now there are THREE battery banks on this boat. battery 1 for engine, battery 2 for other engine and house battery.
There's nothing wrong with a secondary bilge pump for redundancy and capacity. However, that is not the problem you had. I'd be more concerned with what I would need to do to keep the batteries charged under such conditions.

Which battery bank was active at the time?

Was that battery bank dead?

Was the battery bank being charged by the battery charger?
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Old 06-11-2020, 10:12 AM   #17
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Time to simplify.
One house bank, One start bank.
Bilge pumps on a float switch that is always energised.
Bilge pumps also on a direct connection that you can select when needed.
Inverter always OFF when you are not on the boat.
Charger always ON when you are on shore power.

When you leave the boat, you need to be able to walk away without worry that you have forgotten to switch something your present system might have that was imperfectly explained to you by the Broker or former owner.

All of this comes after the source of water intrusion has been identified and corrected.

Good luck.
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Old 06-11-2020, 10:13 AM   #18
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Time to simplify.
One house bank, One start bank.
Bilge pumps on a float switch that is always energised.
Bilge pumps also on a direct connection that you can select when needed.
Inverter always OFF when you are not on the boat.
Charger always ON when you are on shore power.

When you leave the boat, you need to be able to walk away without worry that you have forgotten to switch something your present system might have that was imperfectly explained to you by the Broker or former owner.

All of this comes after the source of water intrusion has been identified and corrected.

Good luck.
Correct!
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Old 06-11-2020, 02:41 PM   #19
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Are you sure it is not fresh water from the tanks or water input from dock?
Waterline would not have gone down.

Rain?

Those concerns about water coming through the exhaust would seem to indicate you think the exhaust through hull is poorly installed and leaking.. Should be easy to check by backing down hard with somebody down below watching.

Other concerns would indicate maybe the bilge outlets are run incorrectly. I found mine on this Pilot ran directly from pump to waterline through-hull instead of up to the underside of the deck ahead. Anti-siphon valve dujour.
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Old 06-11-2020, 04:27 PM   #20
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Had a similar experience with our boat. After first move we left it at a marina and came home (2hrs away). Went back 10 days later and there was a foot of water in the bilge (deep bilge so nowhere near engines or wiring), but still shook me up a bit. Discovered the lower bilge pump (we have three at different levels, and a sump pump) had some trash wedged in that prevented the floating foot from working. Looked everywhere for leaks - prop shafts were leaking a bit - repacked them. Rudder shafts were leaking a bit - tightened them. But still more water appeared in the bilge - and it was salty to the taste. Finally found the big leak after pulling out the floor panel under master vanity - the poop pump and intake pump for the toilet were located there (Galley Maid) - intake pump was leaking a steady stream. Replaced with a Raritan Marine Elegance and tossed the old system. Now I have a dry bilge
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