Bilge Pumps and Apps

[Sweet Dreams]

Why so much water?

I had VERY nasty scare. A new to me Trawler I bought about 2 weeks ago that I docked at a yacht club 3.5 hours away (until the Erie canal opens this is the closest I could get it to me.) gave my heart a hit.....................

Even though I asked the harbormaster to keep an eye on it and explained I mostly was concerned about it taking on water before I left, I said I would be back in 9 days to check on it.... well, I arrived two days ago to see it sitting very low in the water. It had taken on about 12 inches of water.

I jumped on the boat and turned the DC panel dial switch to BOTH battery banks and the bilge pump immediately kicked into action and began working to remove the water.

Thankfully the water did not reach the engines or any electricals.

BUT it really shook me up.

I talked with the surveyor who surveyed it when I bought the boat, the Captain I hired to go with us in the boat to bring it to this club, a marine electrician near the club, and my own diagnostics --- and the best I can come up with is the battery drained because we had the switch on to battery bank 1 and there was an unknown draw, so the bilge pump did not kick on for 9 days because it is wired to bank 1. Even though the boat was PLUGGED INTO TO SHORE POWER the batteries did not charge even though I thought shore power would go through the inverter and keep the battery 1 charged (there are 3 battery banks)

I plan to get a highly recommended marine electrician to install a second BILGE pump, as a back up... AND also go through the electrical system to give me an unquestionably clear understanding of what is on all the time and what is off and what is functioning with the breakers.

And I want an APP to my CELL PHONE to provide operational info on the bilge pump or give me a float level reading or some indicator of amount of water in my boat.

Im the meantime I am having yacht club manager take photos of my boat's waterline every day and text it to me and also left my keys with clear instructions on what to do with harbormaster if the waterline changes.

Man, this is a horrible feeling. I would not wish it on anywone. When you question whether or not your bilge pumps will kick on and when you have a new (old) boat and you are just learning what is going on with it but you have to leave it hours away from where you live due to CORONA VIRUS....

. I don’t know what kind of boat you have, open or closed? Wood or plastic? But I would be concerned as to why the boat is taking on so much water? In my experience harbor masters seldom catch a problem before it becomes a serious problem. It is better to pay someone to watch the boat. Bilge pumps can fail for many different reasons. Good to have a back up bilge pump! My bilge is wired directly to the battery. Does not go through the main switch. This way when I leave the boat I shut my main off and the bilge pump still operates. This way I don’t have to worry about losing power from something that is inadvertently left on. I would be checking to see how your charging system is wired. It may be that it will only charge the battery selected at the main power. Where was it selected last time you ran the boat? Do you have a float switch for your bilge pump and if so are you sure it didn’t stick in the on position running the battery down?

 

[C lectric]

My bilge pumps are wired directly to the batteries, house as that is the biggest capacity bank by far. Fused, yes.

My charger when on will charge BOTH banks, start and house. The charger does not depend on any battery switch.

You might consider rearranging the charger configuration so it does not go through the switch. FUSE the charger outputs CLOSE to the batteries, do not depend upon the charger mounter breaker or fuses.

If the charger is only a two output unit then one output can go to the start batts. with an ACR to keep both sets charged yet separated when the charger is off and the other output to the house batts.

Use the biggest , highest capacity battery bank to run the pumps. If you flatten the eng. start batts. you may be in even bigger trouble if something goes haywire elsewhere. I realize many people will disagree as the house is often used to run the fridge while no one is aboard. I don't do that and won't unless we are on a cruise but then my boat is only left for a few hours at a time. Could be trouble but I still want[ must] be able to start my engine.

I also agree that you really need to find the leak. Keep in mind it may or may not be one leak source only. There could be several with no particular standout individually but cumulatively they can cause the trouble you experienced.

 

[McDan]

Leak

Yes understood. I am not replacing this bilge pump. I want another as backup and want it to draw from a different battery bank. Right now there are THREE battery banks on this boat. battery 1 for engine, battery 2 for other engine and house battery.

I am having a hard time finding the leak because i stayed on the boat for nearly 20 hours watching everything closely and the bilge pump never went on and no more than an inch of water collected in the keal while I was on it. I of course manually lifted the bilge pump float and it worked fine. and checked in with the SELECTOR switch in all three positions and it worked fine in every position.

Also it does have a charger / inverter and I am baffled why it seems it did NOT work for those 9 days YET it worked fine when I got to the boat and was babysitting it.

The main issue now is the source of water ingress. Logically it’s not from being aboard (as you were away for 9 days). Try to estimate how many gallons equates to 1 inch in the bilge, or experiment to find out! (1 inch = X gals over 18 hrs= gals per hour leakage) Examine all through-hull fittings, sea chests, hoses, etc.
As for the batteries, Bilge Pumps should NOT be dependent on a battery switch being on, and neither should the charging: only load circuits should be switched off by battery switches (excluding bilge pumps).
PS: Electronics almost always have a small, constant drain on batteries.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I had an experience a lot like Zoar’s.

Was replacing an impeller in the seawater pump but didn’t have a spare. Got it apart and had one or two blades missing. Was late afternoon so not enough time to go to Craig for a new impeller. So I just left it for the night. In the morning I needed to go to the boat for a reason I can’t recall. When I got there it was obvious Willy was down some in the water. I rushed aboard and turned on my big water pump. I call it my “OMG” pump. This is the only time that pump has pumped water. It is a very high volume pump but being quite rattled by the flooding I was thinking it wasn’t pumping fast enough. The OMG pump pumped right down to sucking air when I relaxed a bit.
The water came up to the rubber on the engine mounts. No damage but very close to getting water in several OMG places.

The problem was water leaking through the kingston valve/sea cock fast enough to ingest all that water but slow enough that I didn’t notice the water. I didn’t know the K valve leaked. And my work the previous day didn’t last long enough to pass enough water at the pump for me to notice. Even though I’ve since replaced the pump I’ll probably never trust a K valve again.
And now I close it when we leave the boat overnight. Never did before. Thought that was silly. But I have started the engine forgetting to open the seacock several times ... always remembering in a minute.

Another sorta related problem;
I had a seacock w a valve sticking up in our “hold”. The compartment between the engine compartment and the lazerett. We call it the hold because we use it that way. We load equipment (anchors and such), water in jugs, kerosene in jugs and other stuff. Lots of weight. The seacock was a worry for some time but on a haul out I hired a FG laminator to remove the valve and fix the hole.
Now I worry less when Willy rolls at sea .. and she does roll. All the stores in the hold are in plastic tubs and lashed up against the engine compartment bulkhead and have never broken loose but a loose bit of heavy gear could have knocked off the seacock sticking up and sunk the boat. Probably in some perfect place like rounding Cape Caution.

 

[steve marcus]

Good point made by "C lectric" about having the pump wired directly to the batteries, when I first got Argo the pumps were only powered when the batteries were turned on and this worried me because my experience with heavy vehicles in my work had taught me that there is always current leakage somewhere and if you want to get an assured start from your engine, isolate the batteries. This happened to me one day when I forgot to turn the batteries off and despite everything on the boat being turned off, the batteries were flattened.
To this end I cut the busbar with a Dremel above and below the 3 switches for the bilge pumps and powered that section direct from the batteries. I then just connected a shunt from the top section of the busbar to the lower section.
So, now my pumps are always connected and everything on the boat is disconnected when I turn the batteries off and I have never had a flat battery since.

 

[Pappi]

New to the forum, first post, so hi to everyone. I don't think we ever found out if Zoar found the leak and fixed it. In any event, I thought the math below hadn't been discussed so I wanted to add it to the thread since small numbers become big numbers over time.

The original problem was that there was 12 inches of water in the bilge after returning to the boat after 9 days. Then, after watching the boat for ~18 hours, there was just one inch (seen as "not too much.") Yet, 1 inch in 18 hours is 1.3333 inches per day. Which over 9 days becomes 12 inches of water. (Of course this doesn't take into account the different contours of a bilge, but the simple math is interesting nonetheless.) Well, maybe someone else will find that interesting.

 

[Zoar]

Okay I have now had the boat for OVER a month and have NOT had any problems since the first scare. I have left it several times for 5 to 7 days and each time I come back it is as close to bone dry as you can get. As I conveyed in the first post I knew I had a leak from the rudder post and slight weap from starboard shaft and the boat had a stroung list. After the first visit I again tried and succeeded to mitigate the leak from the rudder post.

My early on this thread theory being it was a calamity of factors that lead to the initial taking on a foot of water holds true. Let me re-cap:

1) Instrument panel lights were somehow turned on.
2) Power Selector was set on battery bank 1 INSTEAD of being OFF
3) Battery was drained because of instruments lights being on
4) Water from leak around rudder post and weaping from shaft brought water in
5) List on boat is to STARBOARD side. Engine exhaust on starboard sits at 2 inches above waterline and Port sits at 5.5 inches above water line
6) We completely (slightly over) filled the starboard Diesel tank and filled the water tank on that side, this compounded the list
7) When the water coming in the boat brought it down some ---
8) Waves from boats/high winds caused MORE water to enter the starboard exhaust port (which also happened to have a broken FLAPPER)
9) Hence, most of the water came in from the starboard exhaust port

In addition to epoxy repair to rudder post leak I also installed a new flapper and for insurance zip tied a plastic bag over the starboard exhaust port while it sits at this dock.

I have had NO water issues.

Now, I am trying to work on correcting the list.

It has THREE battery banks and TWO are on port side, so that is good.
Diesel tanks (200 gal each) I suspect are equal in size but I will only fill starboard to 60%
I am contemplating removing the starboard side 75 gallon water tank. There are TWO 75 gallon tanks . (NOTE: I intend on installing a water maker most likely to where the starboard water tank is located now.)
Both heads are located on Starboard side
Both helms are located in Starboard side

Other than that, the boat should be equally weighted. I cannot fathom why there is such a list. I have crawled all over inside the boat and not seen any reason why it should list to starboard.

 

[rslifkin]

It shouldn't matter if the exhaust ports are partially submerged. If they're not leaking, no water should get into the boat from them.

 

[dhays]

It shouldn't matter if the exhaust ports are partially submerged. If they're not leaking, no water should get into the boat from them.

Yes. If you really feel that you were getting water ingress from the exhaust port, you have a bigger problem. Remove the plastic bag, as that is simply another potential problem waiting to happen.

 

[Zoar]

It shouldn't matter if the exhaust ports are partially submerged. If they're not leaking, no water should get into the boat from them.

hmmmm. So if the exhaust port is partially submerged, no water should come in. UNTIL when exactly? I also suspect that even if the exhaust port is totally underwater, no water should come into the boat. Yes? OR What would have to happen for the boat to take on water HERE?---ONLY an exhaust pipe leak or joint leak between pipe and exhaust port? That is what I suspect...

I underestand how the exhaust system should be essentially a closed tube from the engine TO the port and yet I cannot access the last section of the exhaust without some excavation to see if there is a leak. Yet when running we have no indication there is an exhaust pipe leak.

 

[rgano]

I would hesitate to remove half of your measly 150 gallons of fresh water tankage. Use the boat for awhile before making that decision because a water maker can be a PITA for a lot of reasons not the least of which is finding water clear enough to use it.

 

[dhays]

Generally, boats are built so they don't have a significant list. Rather than remove the water tank, I would see what is causing the list.


Unless you have already, double check the fuel level in each tank, and then check the water level in each tank. On some boats with a cross connect between the tanks the fuel or water can follow a small list making it worse.

 

[rslifkin]

Even fully submerged exhausts shouldn't be an issue. If the whole system is intact and leak-free, the first issue would come when the ports are submerged far enough to back-fill the mufflers and flood into the engines. But there's a good chance you'd be sinking from other causes (or close to it) by the time that happens. I know on my boat you'd need the exhausts to be more than a foot under to start back-filling the mufflers.

 

[Zoar]

Even fully submerged exhausts shouldn't be an issue. If the whole system is intact and leak-free, the first issue would come when the ports are submerged far enough to back-fill the mufflers and flood into the engines. But there's a good chance you'd be sinking from other causes (or close to it) by the time that happens. I know on my boat you'd need the exhausts to be more than a foot under to start back-filling the mufflers.

Yes that aligns with my thinking, too. So the plausible thing is there must be a leak here in that exhaust.

Also, I agree with everyone that there should NOT be such a list.

But there is.

I have crawled in every cavity and space I can access without EXCAVATION. Unfortunately I think I may need to start to excavate.

That is why I thought I would first try removing 40 gallons of diesel from just the starboard tank and also emptying the water tanks and refilling just the port to see if I could correct it.

 

[rslifkin]

Take note of installed equipment on the boat. It's possible that some stuff has been swapped out or added over time that could account for an imbalance in equipment weight. My boat lists slightly to port (nowhere near as much as you're describing) due to having more heavy equipment on the port side (and it's always been that way). As far as I can determine, there just wasn't room / ability to move something to stbd when the boat was built to correct it. I try to store as much of the heavy stuff as possible to stbd to minimize it.