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Old 07-02-2020, 12:11 PM   #1
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Battery conundrum

Iíve recently completed an extensive battery rework on my 1978-vintage Tollycraft 48. This rework has resulted in a 1250-AH house battery bank (Fullriver 6V AGMs), and a single Fullriver 8D AGM as a start battery for both main engines.

Battery charging duties while dockside is accomplished via a Blue Sea Systems multi-stage 40A ďsmartĒ charger. While I recognize this charger is marginal in capacity, Iím assured by Blue Sea that it is up to the task, and will not be overloaded in any way, even while charging such a large house battery bank. Itíll simply take a while! This charger has three charge outputs-one to the start battery, one to the house battery, and one to the generator battery.

Battery charging duties while underway are handled by two (2) Delco-Remy 105 Amp alternators. These alternators have been modified for external regulation, and are controlled via Balmar MC-614-H regulators. Balancing of regulator outputs is handled via a Balmar Centerfielder. Both alternators charge the house bank, with start battery charging duties handled via a Xantrex Echo Charger off the house bank.

I have read until my teeth bleed any and all documentation I can find on how to properly program these regulators. That programming has resulted in a setup primarily in accordance with Rod Collinís direction in his most excellent website (https://marinehowto.com/), where he goes into extensive directions, including some video support, on how to program the Balmar 614s.

My conundrum is this. If I read Rodís directions correctly, he is primarily concerned with making sure my batteries are not driven into ďpremature floatationĒ (a low-voltage state, 13.6V for my Fullrivers) underway. His concern is, with a partial SOC after being off-grid, not allowing the alternators to stay at a high voltage state (14.7V for my Fullriver AGMs) long enough will not return the batteries to at least the 80% SOC that seems to be the universal ďsweet spotĒ for off-grid charging in a reasonable amount of time. So, having drunk his Kool Aide, I have dutifully dived into the advanced programming of my regulators, and forced my alternators to stay in absorption for 6 hours. When Iíve been on the hook overnight, and my battery bank is depleted, and I get underway for my next destination, all is well. My alternators put out ~160A for hours on end. And yes, theyíre properly de-rated to handle belt loads, and are equipped with both alternator and battery temperature sensors as well.

BUT, on the first leg of my trip, my batteries are at 100% SOC, having been on the shore power battery charger for days at a time. So on my first leg, my alternators are humming along in absorption mode (14.7V), the batteries are fully charged, and their charge acceptance is very low (~1-2A, depending on house loads underway. And Iím sitting aboard, stewing over the fact Iím sitting on about $6K of brand new AGMs, being subjected to a 14.7V charge voltage (albeit at very low current). I simply donít want to barbeque this new battery bank by misunderstanding the charge regimen Iíve programmed into them.

And itís my understanding that Rodís concern for this conundrum is small, as heís witnessed 99.9% of AGM batteries damaged via undercharging, and virtually none from this overvoltage state.

Anybody else share my concern?
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:14 PM   #2
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Personally, unless getting maximum charging from the engine alternators is a requirement, I'd keep the alternator voltage down a bit. Personally, I'd set their absorption to something in the 14 - 14.2 range. Yes, they'll charge slower, but it's safer for the batteries in the case where you're starting out already charged.
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:36 PM   #3
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It may be that the net current is 1 or 2 amps but the because of house loads the actual current out of the alternators is high enough that it won't signal the regulator to begin the float stage of charging... an ammeter on the alternator output would confirm this...or just turning off all the dc loads, one other thing to check is the absorption time on the regulator.


I have lifelines and their absorption voltage is lower then what you are using.
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Old 07-02-2020, 01:25 PM   #4
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AGM - Batteries charging rate voltage

I Agree -- 14.7-volts is to high for AGM's.

I recommend 14.4-volts for AGM long term charging.

You won't go wrong with these numbers.

Good Luck.

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Old 07-02-2020, 02:29 PM   #5
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A quick look at the Fullriver charging profile and 14.7v charging voltate is what they recommend at 77F. Float is 13.65v at that temp. Lifeline's voltages are quite a bit less. The Fullriver recommendations are about the same as some other AGMs I've seen.


So, it all depends.
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Old 07-02-2020, 04:36 PM   #6
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I'd agree with your plans if you are planning regular multi-day cruises anchoring out.
If you normally just anchor out for a single night, I'd reduce the 6 hours @ 14.7V volts a bit or use solar panels do the topping up while underway.
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Old 07-02-2020, 04:58 PM   #7
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@alfamike #4
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I Agree -- 14.7-volts is to high for AGM's. I recommend 14.4-volts for AGM long term charging. You won't go wrong with these numbers.
Sorry, this is very bad advice.

If the mfgr. states 14.7VDC (temperature corrected, of course) they mean 14.7VDC. AGMs are particularly susceptible to partial state of charge (PSOC) issues. So not reaching the prescirbed absorption voltage and holding it until the tail current is somewhere around 0.05C (varies with battery manufacture) will chronically undercharge them and they will prematurely fail by sulfation and, to some extent, stratification.
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Old 07-02-2020, 05:01 PM   #8
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If the mfgr. states 14.7VDC (temperature corrected, of course) they mean 14.7VDC. AGMs are particularly susceptible to partial state of charge (PSOC) issues. So not reaching the prescirbed absorption voltage and holding it until the tail current is somewhere around 0.05C (varies with battery manufacture) will chronically undercharge them and they will prematurely fail by sulfation and, to some extent, stratification.

That is true. However, if the engines aren't being relied on as the primary method of charging the batteries and they'll get topped off from other sources (such as solar), a little lower charge voltage won't hurt anything. They'll just take a little longer to reach full charge (provided they aren't dropped to float too soon).
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Old 07-02-2020, 05:12 PM   #9
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@rslifkin #8
Sorry, I will take my advice about a very important and expensive component on a boat from the manufacturer.

It is, however, your boat.
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Old 07-02-2020, 05:15 PM   #10
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@rslifkin #8
Sorry, I will take my advice about a very important and expensive component on a boat from the manufacturer.

It is, however, your boat.

The manufacturer advice is generally the best way to charge the things. However, they don't tell you to run them up to that voltage for hours when they're already fully charged. So if your electronics can't avoid doing that under some conditions, that's when the "lesser of 2 evils" decisions come in.
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Old 07-02-2020, 05:22 PM   #11
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I take it you do not have an inverter charger that puts out 125 to 150 amps. It would seem that at some point a high charging rate would be of benefit when at anchor to reduce genset run time and likewise load it up.

BTW that T48 is a nice vessel. What engines does she have?
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Old 07-02-2020, 08:34 PM   #12
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You need a bigger charger. You generally don't equalize AGMs...although Lifleine has some sort of procedure. They desulfate via a hefty bulk charge....and a 40 amp charger or even those alternators still aren't likely enough. Do you know what Odyssey recommends as a charger for their AGM batteries??? One half the amp/hour bank size....in your case approx 600 amps. I have seen/heard of boats that had 40 amps chargers that could not even support the house loads while the charger was running at full capacity!!! For heaven's sakes....you spend all that money on those beautiful batteries....please get a proper charger to take care of them. 40 amps is 40 amps....Yeah Blue Seas may say they are up to the task...meaning it won't hurt them. But your batteries will suffer from sulfation in this state.
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Old 07-02-2020, 11:47 PM   #13
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Hi Baker,

With all due respect, I'm afraid you don't grasp the issue I'm dealing with. It has ZERO to do with the size of the battery charger that is used to bring the batteries up to a 100% SOC on shore power.

Why would I care what Odyssey recommends for a bulk charge rate on their batteries? Mine are Fullriver, whose documentation states ".... The initial charge current is recommended to be set at 0.20 x C (250A in my case) in order to fully charge the batteries within a reasonable amount of time. It can be set lower; however, please be aware that charge time will increase so make sure the batteries have enough time to fully charge before being put back into service."

This is absolutely NOT my conundrum. I recognize I can't charge at an "optimum" rate, ever. But I desire to charge at an optimum VOLTAGE always. On shore power, underway, or while running my auxiliary generator. On the first leg of my trip, or the Nth leg.

You plead with me to "...For heaven's sakes....you spend all that money on those beautiful batteries....please get a proper charger to take care of them." Again, NOT the issue at hand. I'm REALLY NOT trying to elicit electrical system redesign opinions for my boat. It's about as optimized as I can afford. So things like solar, large-frame alternators, multiplexed inverter/chargers, bigger AC battery chargers, etc. are off the table. Not perfect, but all boats are a compromise.

I'm really only trying to make myself happy and glad I'm not inadvertently barbequing my battery bank, with my given Balmar regulator configuration. Honest.

Regards,

Pete
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Old 07-03-2020, 06:28 AM   #14
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Who has an engine room temp at 77F when running? Certainly not mine. What voltage does FR recommend for at the running temp of the OP's ER? Do the installed chargers have temperature sensing for compensation?
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Old 07-03-2020, 06:55 AM   #15
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The blue sea chargers do have a sensor for temperature compensation
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Old 07-03-2020, 07:28 AM   #16
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I Agree -- 14.7-volts is to high for AGM's.

I recommend 14.4-volts for AGM long term charging.

You won't go wrong with these numbers.

Depends on battery maker. Odyssey suggests 14.7V... as apparently does FullRiver.

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Old 07-03-2020, 10:14 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by jungpeter View Post
Hi Baker,

With all due respect, I'm afraid you don't grasp the issue I'm dealing with. .........

I'm really only trying to make myself happy and glad I'm not inadvertently barbequing my battery bank, with my given Balmar regulator configuration. Honest.

Regards,

Pete
The "issue you are dealing with" doesn't matter when your very expensive battery bank will be dead in 4 years. It would be double that(plus) with (significantly) better charging capacity. If that makes you "happy", have at it.

Good luck amigo!

PS....and to answer your question with a question....is there a way to manually control the alternator field so you could turn it on and off as you monitor the SOC of the battery bank so you do not fry your batteries in some of your scenarios?
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Old 07-03-2020, 12:27 PM   #18
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High Wire-I put my IR temp gun directly on my house battery posts after being underway for several hours. None exceeded 72 deg F. My battery bank is located between my main engines, as low as possible in the bilge of my Tolly 48. Don't forget-here in the PNW, we operate in roughly 50 deg F water 24/7. So the entire underbody of my boat's bathed in a relatively cool thermal sink. Yup, the temp at the ceiling of my engine room is higher. But the batteries are pretty cool 24/7.

And as stated in my original posting, the chargers (the main engine alternators while underway) are temperature compensated via temperature sensors on the house batteries.

Baker-Again, with all due respect, perhaps we should agree to disagree. You continue to admonish me to "...get (significantly) better charging capacity." Due to the inherent design of the 3208 CATs (my main engines), and the resulting cramped installation in a Tolly 48 engine room, there simply isn't physical space to accommodate higher output alternators, or the attendant drive belt requirements. And the as-installed 105A Delco-Remys are WAY more capable than the 78-vintage 65A internally-regulated OEM CAT alternators. Those went away years ago under previous ownership.

If you're referring to my puny Blue Seas 40A shore power charger, I would LOVE to upgrade it. But given it's only used to put in the last residual charge deficit remaining upon plugging into shore power whenever possible, I think it'll do. It may take a while, but it gets the job done, usually within 24 hours.
And it is programmed to deliver a similar charge profile (14.7V bulk/14.7V absorb/ 13.6V float) as the Delcos.

And finally to answer your question regarding manually controlling the field of my alternators underway, the answer is yes. A published "fix" for this situation is to run a lead from the voltage regulators' temperature sensor port to a on/off switch at the dashboard. One can then artificially trip the sensor, signalling the alternator that an over-temperature state exists on the alternators, which immediately reduces the output to something like 50%. But given I'm already at way-less than full-field (SOC is 100%) upon leaving the dock at the beginning of a trip, and the combined output of the alternators is only sufficient to compensate for the running DC loads, the result is ???

And I guess if that's my only option, I guess I may post a full-on rant to Balmar, and those that promote it's virtues and programmability so highly, that (in my case) an approximately $1000 regulator/centerfielder combo requires manual operator intervention to operate "properly". Say it isn't so!!!

Regards,

Pete
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Old 07-03-2020, 01:26 PM   #19
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High Wire-I put my IR temp gun directly on my house battery posts after being underway for several hours. None exceeded 72 deg F. My battery bank is located between my main engines, as low as possible in the bilge of my Tolly 48. Don't forget-here in the PNW, we operate in roughly 50 deg F water 24/7. So the entire underbody of my boat's bathed in a relatively cool thermal sink. Yup, the temp at the ceiling of my engine room is higher. But the batteries are pretty cool 24/7.

And as stated in my original posting, the chargers (the main engine alternators while underway) are temperature compensated via temperature sensors on the house batteries.

Baker-Again, with all due respect, perhaps we should agree to disagree. You continue to admonish me to "...get (significantly) better charging capacity." Due to the inherent design of the 3208 CATs (my main engines), and the resulting cramped installation in a Tolly 48 engine room, there simply isn't physical space to accommodate higher output alternators, or the attendant drive belt requirements. And the as-installed 105A Delco-Remys are WAY more capable than the 78-vintage 65A internally-regulated OEM CAT alternators. Those went away years ago under previous ownership.

If you're referring to my puny Blue Seas 40A shore power charger, I would LOVE to upgrade it. But given it's only used to put in the last residual charge deficit remaining upon plugging into shore power whenever possible, I think it'll do. It may take a while, but it gets the job done, usually within 24 hours.
And it is programmed to deliver a similar charge profile (14.7V bulk/14.7V absorb/ 13.6V float) as the Delcos.

And finally to answer your question regarding manually controlling the field of my alternators underway, the answer is yes. A published "fix" for this situation is to run a lead from the voltage regulators' temperature sensor port to a on/off switch at the dashboard. One can then artificially trip the sensor, signalling the alternator that an over-temperature state exists on the alternators, which immediately reduces the output to something like 50%. But given I'm already at way-less than full-field (SOC is 100%) upon leaving the dock at the beginning of a trip, and the combined output of the alternators is only sufficient to compensate for the running DC loads, the result is ???

And I guess if that's my only option, I guess I may post a full-on rant to Balmar, and those that promote it's virtues and programmability so highly, that (in my case) an approximately $1000 regulator/centerfielder combo requires manual operator intervention to operate "properly". Say it isn't so!!!

Regards,

Pete
If I understand correctly, you are wanting to have the alternator regulators go immediately into 'float' charge if the battery is already full from the shore power charging when you start a journey since the are already full from shore power. Is that correct?

The Full River documentation states that the maximum absorption phase of charge is 8 hours @ 14.7 volts followed by float charge @ 13.65 for a minimum of 8 hours, so doing that absorb phase again for a long period of time after it has already been completed by the shore power charger would seem to violate that part of the specified charge regimen.

Given that, the MC-614 is pretty smart. You can set the bulk and absorption times pretty short (6 minutes) and then let it perform the calc-bulk and calc-absorb so it will back off if the batteries are already full, and go with the manufacturer's recommended voltages for those phases. If you pull the shore power plug as the first thing you do when you arrive to use the boat you can deplete the batteries a little bit and the 614's should do a good job of topping them back off and not overcharging getting to float pretty quickly.

The documentation also says that 20 hours is the maximum total charge cycle time, so your 40 amp shore power charger, if used to replenish the batteries from a 50% charge state would be unlikely to be able to meet that requirement. You didn't ask about that, but it is the case. On a 48' boat, I'm surprised it can handle dock-side 12V power needs alone if you use the boat at the dock at all.
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Old 07-03-2020, 03:33 PM   #20
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Hi sbman,

Quote:
If I understand correctly, you are wanting to have the alternator regulators go immediately into 'float' charge if the battery is already full from the shore power charging when you start a journey since the are already full from shore power. Is that correct?
I believe you're correct. Upon leaving the dock on leg 1 of any trip, the batteries are at a 100% SOC after being sustained on shore power for a substantial period of time. I'd like the regulators to recognize that SOC, and thereby go to float ASAP. And not come off float until such time as the batteries' SOC degrades to some TBD level. And then go back to the bulk/absorb/float charger profile as required.

And after spending the night, where the SOC can dip to as low as 50%, for leg 2 (or leg N, depending on the particular cruise de jour), I'd like the regulators to recognize that SOC, and go into the bulk/absorb/float charge profile, again as specified by Fullriver. And it is this exact behavior that my current Balmar setup is accomplishing, every time I start up, whether or not my SOC is 100% or 50%. The only difference is the current provided via the alternator/regulator setup is 160A @50% SOC, vs ~1A at 100% SOC. But the voltage and time profiles are exactly the same.

So maybe my conundrum goes back to my lack of understanding of the chemistry of energy exchange in a Fullriver AGM. The charge profile as specified by Fullriver's specifications is programmed into my Balmar 614s. It executes that profile perfectly, every time the engines are running. And it is (in my understanding), just what the doctor has ordered to keep my large house bank happy for years to come, ASSUMING THE BATTERIES ARE DISCHARGED SIGNIFICANTLY UPON STARTUP!

But how about that same profile against a fully charged battery bank? Are AGMs damaged by high VOLTAGE, or high CURRENT? Clearly, they're damaged by high current exceeding their recommended charge acceptance rate (20%C, 250A in my case). But I ain't doing that. So, are they damaged by high VOLTAGE, with little current (~1A, in my case) for long periods of time?

Again, per Rod Collins, he claims 99.9% of AGMs fail from chronic undercharging vs overcharging. So am I trying to overthink this thing, and should I simply ignore my high voltage state upon startup, recognizing I'm dealing with 99% of my problem correctly?

Quote:
Given that, the MC-614 is pretty smart. You can set the bulk and absorption times pretty short (6 minutes) and then let it perform the calc-bulk and calc-absorb so it will back off if the batteries are already full, and go with the manufacturer's recommended voltages for those phases. If you pull the shore power plug as the first thing you do when you arrive to use the boat you can deplete the batteries a little bit and the 614's should do a good job of topping them back off and not overcharging getting to float pretty quickly.
Yeah, but that defeats the major benefit of the 614's, which can be programmed to NOT go to float too soon. "Premature floatation" (going to float within a few minutes) is deadly on AGMs that need recharge. And I'm going to resist to the day I die any manual intervention required to "trick" the regulators into a float condition. I spent WAY too much money to date to fall back on (IMHO) neanderthal battery management.

Quote:
The documentation also says that 20 hours is the maximum total charge cycle time, so your 40 amp shore power charger, if used to replenish the batteries from a 50% charge state would be unlikely to be able to meet that requirement. You didn't ask about that, but it is the case. On a 48' boat, I'm surprised it can handle dock-side 12V power needs alone if you use the boat at the dock at all.
Well, yeah, the puny Blue Seas charger can and does replenish my residual charge deficit within 24 hours. And I believe you've perhaps misinterpreted the Fullriver charging instructions a tad. Figure 1 of that sheet shows "...charging time no limit" along the abscissa. And again, yeah, even with refrigeration running 24/7, and many halogen lights still left aboard, the battery charger easily sustains the boat dockside on shore power.

Thanks for your comments and questions. Hopefully my pea-brain is absorbing this stuff, and I can learn accordingly.

Regards,

Pete

ps-in retrospect, the Wakespeed WS-500 is looking better and better. Just BOAT!
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