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Old 07-03-2020, 03:59 PM   #21
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Yeah, but that defeats the major benefit of the 614's, which can be programmed to NOT go to float too soon. "Premature floatation" (going to float within a few minutes) is deadly on AGMs that need recharge. And I'm going to resist to the day I die any manual intervention required to "trick" the regulators into a float condition. I spent WAY too much money to date to fall back on (IMHO) neanderthal battery management.
I don't see how that is the case. The default for the 'mandatory' bulk and absorb cycles is 18 minutes each, it moves out of those after that time period and moves into it's 'Auto' modes. The purpose of the auto-bulk and auto-absorb are to monitor the battery and not over charge it. Auto-bulk will use a voltage trigger and auto-absorb should use a current trigger.

If the batteries are already full, it needs to get to float quickly, a long absorb charge on an already full battery will be overcharging it. With the default times it would take 36+ minutes (18 for bulk, 18 for absorb plus the automodes and other cycles it goes through) to reach float. If you do that all the time starting up with full batteries, decreasing the mandatory cycle times to less might be a good idea, and that does not mean it won't stay in absorb longer when the battery is actually needing charged, it just moves to the auto modes faster.

I guess the point is the purpose of the auto-modes are to do exactly what you are wanting, stay in absorb when the batteries are empty but not stay in it long when they are full, if it isn't then something may not be right.

Typically bulk is stopped when a certain voltage threshold is reached. Then in absorb, a fixed voltage is held and when current tapers to the tail current it is moved to float, this compensates for the state of charge of the battery automatically.
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Old 07-04-2020, 06:55 PM   #22
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Hi Sbman,

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I don't see how that is the case. The default for the 'mandatory' bulk and absorb cycles is 18 minutes each, it moves out of those after that time period and moves into it's 'Auto' modes.
I'm afraid you're confusing me with some of your terminology. There are no "mandatory" bulk and absorption times in the 614. There are "default" times of 18 minutes of bulk, absorption, and float charge states, assuming you select the AGL (AGM) battery type during basic programming for battery type.

And I'm sorry, I have no idea what your "...'Auto' modes" refer to. If you are referring to the Calculated Float charge stage (again with an 18 minute default time), and assuming the regulator will (in Balmar's words) "...automatically revert to the absorption charge state" at the conclusion of that state, then I think I see where you're going. But I believe you're incorrect in your terminology (confusing enough, as Balmar uses some "creative (non-industry standard) terminology in their Installation and Operation Manual as it is), and I believe Balmar calls your 'Auto modes' "Calculated Bulk" and "Calculated Absorption" and "Calculate Float" states.

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The purpose of the auto-bulk and auto-absorb are to monitor the battery and not over charge it. Auto-bulk will use a voltage trigger and auto-absorb should use a current trigger.
Uh, no. "Calculated bulk" and "Calculated Absorption" don't monitor anything. They are voltage and time states that are controlled by the regulator's monitoring of the regulators' field current, battery voltage, and time.

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Auto-bulk will use a voltage trigger and auto-absorb should use a current trigger
Well, again, the charge states don't "monitor" anything. The REGULATOR monitors battery voltage (and field current, and time) to determine if the alternator(s) should be commanded to move between bulk, absorption, and float stages. And as there is no shunt anywhere in the Balmar installation, the regulators CANNOT measure (and use) current to regulate anything.

To attempt to shorten this rhetoric, I believe what you are suggesting to me is to select the AGL (AGM) battery type in my basic Balmar 614 setup, and perhaps modify some of the battery parameters to match my Fullriver specifications, and let it go at that.

If so, we'll have to part company here, as MANY trusted sources on the WWW liken the default settings of the 614 to using a Bugatti Veyron to shop for groceries. Gross overkill, and a killer of AGM batteries, as those defaults will never allow the alternators to charge a significant battery bank in any reasonable amount of time while underway.

Regards,

Pete
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Old 07-04-2020, 07:51 PM   #23
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The 614 can be programmed to do a 6 minute bulk then go into a calculated bulk charge which monitors the voltage as the current ramps up if need be. Then absorption charge which can also be programed for 6 minutes then go into calculated absorption ( but staying in absorption doesn't really hurt anything if you think of the wattage going into 3 to 400lbs of battery( you were saying 1 or 2 amps that's 29 (14.7v)watts versus 27 (13.5v)watts at float.. that's a lot of mass and not much power difference...my 900 a/h bank will float at 30amps
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Old 07-05-2020, 09:43 AM   #24
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Scroll long way down to Tech Tips #6.

https://marinehowto.com/programming-...age-regulator/

Exhaustive article on programming Balmer regulators.
Hope the simple fix, helps.
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Old 07-05-2020, 03:15 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by jungpeter View Post
I'm afraid you're confusing me with some of your terminology. There are no "mandatory" bulk and absorption times in the 614. There are "default" times of 18 minutes of bulk, absorption, and float charge states, assuming you select the AGL (AGM) battery type during basic programming for battery type. And I'm sorry, I have no idea what your "...'Auto' modes" refer to. If you are referring to the Calculated Float charge stage (again with an 18 minute default time),
Yes, I was referring to the calc modes. The minimum time spent in each mode is what I meant by mandatory since it won't skip those no matter how full your batteries are, and the default of 18 minutes might be excessive for a full battery.

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Uh, no. "Calculated bulk" and "Calculated Absorption" don't monitor anything. They are voltage and time states that are controlled by the regulator's monitoring of the regulators' field current, battery voltage, and time.
I think we are saying the same thing. The charge states are software programs in the regulator that monitor the items mentioned.

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Originally Posted by jungpeter View Post
Well, again, the charge states don't "monitor" anything. The REGULATOR monitors battery voltage (and field current, and time) to determine if the alternator(s) should be commanded to move between bulk, absorption, and float stages. And as there is no shunt anywhere in the Balmar installation, the regulators CANNOT measure (and use) current to regulate anything.
While this is technically true, field percentage is a good approximation of current and is part of the monitoring in the charge profile run by the regulator.

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Originally Posted by jungpeter View Post
To attempt to shorten this rhetoric, I believe what you are suggesting to me is to select the AGL (AGM) battery type in my basic Balmar 614 setup, and perhaps modify some of the battery parameters to match my Fullriver specifications, and let it go at that.

If so, we'll have to part company here, as MANY trusted sources on the WWW liken the default settings of the 614 to using a Bugatti Veyron to shop for groceries. Gross overkill, and a killer of AGM batteries, as those defaults will never allow the alternators to charge a significant battery bank in any reasonable amount of time while underway.
Not quite what I was saying no. I was suggesting you try modifying the time settings and then monitor a charge cycle to see if it improves the situation.

This is of particular interest to me as I am currently working with an almost identical setup with dual large frame 280 amp alternators (on FL120's with a multi groove belt conversion) with dual MC614 and a centerfielder all charging a bank of 800 AH of Northstar AGMs. Your post has prompted me to monitor their charge profile more closely and see how it's doing.
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Old 07-05-2020, 07:41 PM   #26
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Hi Sbman,

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Not quite what I was saying no. I was suggesting you try modifying the time settings and then monitor a charge cycle to see if it improves the situation.
Thanks. As my install is relatively recent, and I haven't had the opportunity to sea trial it on a significant number of cruises, I'm going to do just as you suggest. I'm going to watch the whole shebang like a hawk, and modify accordingly. I only wish I wasn't using the "infinite number of monkeys" approach to my understanding!

Quote:
This is of particular interest to me as I am currently working with an almost identical setup with dual large frame 280 amp alternators (on FL120's with a multi groove belt conversion) with dual MC614 and a centerfielder all charging a bank of 800 AH of Northstar AGMs. Your post has prompted me to monitor their charge profile more closely and see how it's doing.
Wow, I bet you could do some pretty serious DC welding with THAT setup! Obviously very similar. For what it's worth, when and if I do this again, I'm going to take a long, hard look at the Wakespeed WS500 (Wakespeed Products). I sense several advantages over the Balmar 614/Centerfielder setup.

Firstly, no "centerfielder"-like thinghy needed to control the load sharing between alternators. Simply an ethernet cable between them. In fact (although I haven't looked too deeply into this claim), a single WS500 may be capable of controlling multiple alternators.

Secondly, the WS500 uses a shunt to monitor CURRENT into the battery, vice Balmar's choice to monitor %field. In my opinion, as %field is varying all over the place while underway as DC loads from such as refrigeration and inverter loads come and go independently, using %field to monitor SOC doesn't seem like such a great idea, at least to me. Maybe I'm picking the pepper out of the fly sh$% here, but current in/out of my battery bank seems to be REAL important, as does voltage. Monitoring current AND voltage directly, and controlling the alternators thusly, makes sense to me.

As a bit of a ding, on first glance the WS500 seems to suffer from typical tech-itis. "Hey boss, look what we can do with a single line of code". Hence perhaps too complicated for us mere mortals. And I'm waiting for some of the better-known electrical system gurus (Collins, Ellison, Cote, etc.) to weigh in with THEIR experiences with the thing. Maybe for my NEXT boat....!!!

Regards,

Pete
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Old 07-05-2020, 08:06 PM   #27
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And to all that have kindly responded to my original posting, thank you.

It is obvious to me that, after reading as much technical literature as my brain can accommodate, and digesting the postings to date, that I am well past due to hire a competent, ABYC-certified marine electrician with DIRECT experience with such a setup as mine, and get his eyes on my installation, and provide me with professional advice.

That was my intention from the get-go, but this covid BS has complicated the matter. But no time like the present!

Regards,

Pete
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Old 07-06-2020, 10:17 AM   #28
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Scroll long way down to Tech Tips #6.

https://marinehowto.com/programming-...age-regulator/

Exhaustive article on programming Balmer regulators.
Hope the simple fix, helps.
Rod
Bingo!! I just looked at my notes on this.

To drop an MC-614 from 14.7V to about 13.8V, with the flip of a dash switch, you just need a 1/2W 3.83K Ohm resistor tied into the MC-614's second battery battery temp terminals.

Wire the resistor into the circuit, then flip a dash switch to turn on that resistor circuit, and you now have forced float for when you leave the dock.

We need to remember that the MC-614 is a VOLTAGE regulator. It is not a current and voltage regulator. For current and voltage you'd need a Wakespeed WS500 with the additional shunt.

Field percentage really tells the regulator very little about what portion of that field energy is going into the batteries & which percentage is being used to serve house loads.

You can spend many hours tweaking FbA to suit your average house loads, and can be successful, but we find programming the reg for cruising / PSoC purposes then using a forced float switch to be much easier.
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Old 07-06-2020, 11:36 AM   #29
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Hi Rod,

Thanks for your reply. Most learned, as always.

And roger, roger on your application of a resistor, tied to a dash switch, on the unused battery temp terminal on the 614. I think you're right on the money, given the 614 is a VOLTAGE regulator, and does NOT regulate both voltage and current, that it may be appropriate to "force to float" the alternators when the SOC is already at 100% at the start of a trip.

But I will resist to the day I die the notion that a $1000 (or so) regulator setup, advertised (and advocated by many as yourself) as the cat's meow of regulators, requires this neanderthal manual "trick" to operate properly in all conditions. I'm just stubborn enough to junk the whole mess, and install the Wakespeed solution instead.

But then again, I recognize the WS500 as having its OWN set of challenges, particularly for us DIY-ers that are not particularly computer savvy, or particularly interested in other than stress-free boating. And, as I believe the WS500 is relatively new to the market, and not particularly well reviewed and tested yet, this might be a deep dive for myself. Sigh...

And I guess unresolved to me at least, is just how badly am I beating up on my very expensive Fullriver AGM battery bank by operating at a high voltage (14.7V for both bulk and absorption) and low current (~1A) for six hours before my 614's fall to float (13.6V)? Maybe kind of a battery chemist's issue, isn't it?

Regards,

Pete
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Old 07-06-2020, 11:37 AM   #30
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Bingo!! I just looked at my notes on this.

We need to remember that the MC-614 is a VOLTAGE regulator. It is not a current and voltage regulator. For current and voltage you'd need a Wakespeed WS500 with the additional shunt.
Unfortunately this is right on, and any setup with the 614 is going to be a compromise. in this regard.
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Old 07-06-2020, 11:45 AM   #31
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Hi Rod,
But I will resist to the day I die the notion that a $1000 (or so) regulator setup, advertised (and advocated by many as yourself) as the cat's meow of regulators, requires this neanderthal manual "trick" to operate properly in all conditions. I'm just stubborn enough to junk the whole mess, and install the Wakespeed solution instead.
If you are using a Victron BMV series battery monitor, you could use it's relay output to control the switch automatically. That combined with the 'float' resistor on the Balmar (on a relay driven by the Victron instead of a switch) will provide an output that is triggered at 90% SOC and 50% SOC.

The output goes HI when at 90%+ SOC and LOW when 50% SOC by default and you can modify the thresholds in the programming.
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Old 07-06-2020, 02:59 PM   #32
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Hi Rod,


But I will resist to the day I die the notion that a $1000 (or so) regulator setup, advertised (and advocated by many as yourself) as the cat's meow of regulators, requires this neanderthal manual "trick" to operate properly in all conditions. I'm just stubborn enough to junk the whole mess, and install the Wakespeed solution instead.
You can resist all you want but the MC-614 is a voltage regulator and simply one of the best there is, in terms of voltage only. Up until the WS500 came out there was no better or more programmable alternator regulator made.

The MC-614 is highly programmable but in order to make it work optimally for PSoC use, and dockside use, some tricks may need to be used such as forced float. You can always leave it as it is, factory default, but as we know the lawyers force it to drop to float way to early and this is why Balmar gives you options. You can also play with FbA and dial that in too. If your on-board loads are pretty consistent FbA in conjunction with other settings can work well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jungpeter View Post
But then again, I recognize the WS500 as having its OWN set of challenges, particularly for us DIY-ers that are not particularly computer savvy, or particularly interested in other than stress-free boating. And, as I believe the WS500 is relatively new to the market, and not particularly well reviewed and tested yet, this might be a deep dive for myself. Sigh...
Yes the WS500 is new, and an amazing regulator, but the owners of the company are not new to this. Rick Jones, one of the owners, was Balmar's national sales manager for many years and left durint the Balmar /CDI ownership transition..

The WS500 really the ultimate in alternator voltage regulators, but not for the faint of heart. It can do just about anything you want or need it to but it is more complex than the MC-614.. Course all these features will set you back almost twice what an MC-614 costs. We have an agreement right now with Wakespeed where they will custom program it before shipping. This makes it near plug and play.

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And I guess unresolved to me at least, is just how badly am I beating up on my very expensive Fullriver AGM battery bank by operating at a high voltage (14.7V for both bulk and absorption) and low current (~1A) for six hours before my 614's fall to float (13.6V)? Maybe kind of a battery chemist's issue, isn't it?
Bulk (bv) and Absorption (av) need to be 0.1V apart. They cannot both be 14.7V.

How did you determine it needed to be 6 hours? Was this through testing the bank to see when it attained 1% to 0.5% of Ah capacity in tail current?

Again, I've yet to see AGM's dried out or ruined from what you describe about leaving the dock but we do see piles and piles of AGM batteries destroyed by chronic under charging and sulfation.

I have an Odyssey PCM2150 in my Toyota truck and the Denso alternator pumps out 14.55V +/- near constantly (in really hot temps I may see it at 14.3V). That AGM battery has over 140K miles on it and is still going strong. It was used, but decent, when I put it in there.

An 15¢ resistor, $2.00 in wire, an ON/OFF toggle switch are a lot less expensive than changing everything out to a WS500.
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Old 07-06-2020, 04:06 PM   #33
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I wasn't aware of the WS500 until this thread came along, looks like a really complete solution.

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An 15¢ resistor, $2.00 in wire, an ON/OFF toggle switch are a lot less expensive than changing everything out to a WS500.
What do you think of controlling the float mode resistor via a relay output from a battery monitor? The Victron monitors have a configurable relay output based on SOC that could drive it.
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Old 07-06-2020, 04:25 PM   #34
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Hi Rod,

Once again, thanks for your thorough and learned responses to my very likely only personal problem with these two battery states (partial SOC, and 100% SOC) that I am struggling to understand.

Quote:
You can resist all you want but the MC-614 is a voltage regulator and simply one of the best there is, in terms of voltage only. Up until the WS500 came out there was no better or more programmable alternator regulator made.
Couldn't agree more. I first installed Balmar 612's (I think) on my very-similar Canoe Cove 53 with FLAs in about 2004. Worked great, lasted long time, for that application. When this project came about in 2020, the 614's are my #1 choice. And no, despite my puckishness, I doubt I'll rip 'em out for Wakespeeds. Maybe on my next boat....

Quote:
Bulk (bv) and Absorption (av) need to be 0.1V apart. They cannot both be 14.7V.
Even though Fullriver specs bv and av at the same (14.7V) voltages? My 614's didn't hiccup when I set those parameters the same. Admittedly blurs the distinction between bulk and float, but to what effect, other than time at the 14.7V level?

Quote:
How did you determine it needed to be 6 hours? Was this through testing the bank to see when it attained 1% to 0.5% of Ah capacity in tail current?
My house loads can approach 480AH overnight. Yeah, it's a lot, with heavy hitters being refrigeration/freezer, but also microwave, coffeemaker, and stuff like hair dryers. Our family of five lives an admittedly consumptive lifestyle when afloat! So I've set minimum bulk duration (b1C) at .3 hr (18 min), and minimum absorption voltage duration (A1C) at 6 hr. Those parameters were set to provide an adequate time at maximum alternator output (160A, assuming I've got the belt manager properly set at level 4 (bEL=4) to make sure I don't fry my alternators), yet maximize their output when charging against a depleted house bank.

I've only had two chances to observe the alternator/regulator operation via my Victron battery monitor while underway to date. Seems to work as advertised on the legs when the SOC is down near 50% to start, as the battery voltage does drop to float (13.6V) when the tail current gets to ~12A. SOC at that point is approaching 80%, after something like 4 hours underway.

I'm coming around to your admonition that I might simply have a personal problem with seeing high voltage on my batteries for a long period on those legs when I'm at 100% SOC to start. And maybe I'll think a bit more kidly about "forcing to float" my 614's. Thanks again for all.

Regards,

Pete

ps-I'm going to send you a Private Message about this stuff.
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