Basics on a passage-maker?

[BandB]

WifeyB

That video brought back memories. Thanks. ��

Wifey B: You're welcome.

Memories light the corners of my mind
Misty water-colored memories of the way we were

Scattered pictures of the smiles we left behind
Smiles we gave to one another for the way we were.

Can it be that it was all so simple then
Or has time rewritten every line
If we had the chance to do it all again, tell me, would we, could we

Memories may be beautiful and yet
What's too painful to remember we simply choose to forget
So it's the laughter we will remember
Whenever we remember the way we were.

The way we were.

 

[Bigsfish]

WifeyB

If I needed a shrink you could be her!!!

Thanks.

 

[Nomad Willy]

All passagemakers are designed as passagemakers. Coastal cruisers and other heavy cruisers need not apply.

In this thread the layout of the boat hasn't been given enough consideration. It's covered in Beeb's book Voyaging Under Power in considerable detail.
The location of everything is very important and it may not be even possible for a cruiser to be also a passagemaker.
The N46 is a good passagemaker but not a good coastal cruiser. It comes close as it's not an ideal passagemaker.
CG and how much weight extended into the ends of the boat may be more important that hull shape. Where to sleep. Location of helm. Sound/noise management. Everyone will want to be where the boat's motion is acceptable, tollerable or nice. But you can't sleep in the engine compartment or the galley.


The smallest passagemaker I've ever seen was in PMM. A 1999 issue. Twenty feet of one off aluminum hull w small Yanmar power.
The most interesting thing about the boat is the stabilizers. They (one on each side) were much like a typical center board on a small sailboat. But instead of being on CL they are at the turn of the bilge (and high AR) and deploy at roughly 45 degrees, a tad less I think. See in pic. The boat is actually overpowered at 9hp per ton and the stabilizers when deployed act as trim tabs and permit speeds above hull speed (7 knots). Design speed however is 5 knots. Range is 4500nm with ideal conditions and somewhere north of 3200nm typically. 18" prop, 18hp 2GM20 Yanmar engine, 450 liters fuel and 41nm per imp gallon at 5 knots.

The article was about the boat more or less freshly built and no ocean crossings were mentioned. And if one was to actually do it it certainly would not be me. But it's a 20' passagemaker.

 

[Bigsfish]

Hi Eric

Since passage makers don't make good costal cruisers and coastal cruisers don't make good passage makers it begs the question: how many of us devote the biggest percentage of cruising to passage making versus coastal cruising?

I would venture to guess c c out weighs p m by a ten to one margin. Sure I would like to cross the Atlantic once just to cross it off my bucket list. But why would I purchase a p m when I do mostly c c? Kind of like the wrist watch discussion currently raging on the forum.

Interesting.

 

[man n black]

No that's not true....there are some good dual role boats....They're damned expensive and don't go very fast...but they are also are luxurious and super capable...

The more I read this thread the more I keep thinking of how thousands of people have crossed oceans on small craft (30ft or less) under sail or motor and not died...I think a well built displacement hull trawler type boat with sufficient range and storage capacity would be just as good...though quite a bit more expensive than a sailboat

At least 2 YouTube channels come to mind....

 

[Nomad Willy]

Mr. black read Voyaging Under Power.
And the cc/pm is a bit like the motorsailer question. But there it's much more clear. All motorsailers suffer as motorboats and as sailboats. Same w cc and PM.

Bigfish,
This is a trawler forum and some think the ultimate trawler is a passagemaker. It's extremely untrue. They are a little like a racing sailboat. Can't do anything but race. And I'll bet the ratio you speak of is much closer to 50-1 ... or higher.

 

[AusCan]

Like many things relating to boat design, a hard core passage maker is going to compromise a few other attributes. Most TF members don't want to give up the window views and the large cockpits and the open plan interior to be have a serious passagemaker.
Even though few of us cross oceans, some of us like our boats to be able to handle the odd rough crossing of open water. We share a few design feAtures from the serious boats to ensure we get to our chosen destination without beating up ourselves or our boats too badly.

 

[dhmeissner]

This guy circumnavigated in a 24ft sailboat, so as many have said it all depends...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Lee_Graham

Dove is a cool movie by the way.

 

[FF]

"Mr. black read Voyaging Under Power."

Try to find a first edition as the 2nd and on were taken over and published by a boat building co to schlock their product.

 

[cafesport]

First of all we can all thank Robert Beebe for not only the word but the actual design and build of such vessels. Long before the creation of reliable diesel engines vessels only met basic criteria like keeping water on the outside of the hull under varying conditions and perhaps an ability to transport passengers/cargo across oceans for trade and war. Better designs came along when we started minimizing and removing risks in order to use the vessels again and again. Modern day designs and Beebe in particular were about enhancing passenger comfort beyond the basic human needs with an emphasis on small and affordable and single diesel driven propulsion.

Unfortunately there is no real way to know what is the best choice for you until you actually get out there and do it. Robin Lee Grahm cited above didn't finish his voyage in the same boat he started out in. The lesson there is that often we don't know what we don't know. In my own case the boats I chose approaching 30 were not the same as the one I chose when I was forty and different once again than the one chosen at 50.

 

[Nomad Willy]

"Mr. black read Voyaging Under Power."

Try to find a first edition as the 2nd and on were taken over and published by a boat building co to schlock their product.

No need to look high and low for a 1st copy edition. I have a 3rd ed and think it's very very excellent.

 

[Northern Spy]

For me, the basic would simply be a well-found sailboat. I love my power boat, but can't see myself doing long passages in one. For that, I would return to sail.

Yup. I still check the prices of Bristol Channel Cutter 28s every now and then. My dream solo ocean crosser.

 

[bugmonster]

Great thread. We're still some years away from the boating lifestyle, but would like to be able to do the inland waterways of Europe and the great loop, as well as some blue water (if not an actual ocean crossing). So far I've found 2 boats that meet the criteria - Elling E4 and Privateer Trawler 50. I think either would work well in both the coastal cruiser and passage maker roles. I've found a few others (Altena BWT, Searocco 1500), but very little info about them and few hulls actually delivered as far as I can tell.

The Privateer meets size limits nicely (15m length for licensing restrictions in Europe, 5m beam for European locks, 3.5m air draft for European & great loop bridges, 1.5m water draft for European canals, also good for the loop and Caribbean). 1500 gallons of diesel provide good range, steel hull, proper pilot house, stabilization, etc. meet most people's requirements on this thread.

The Elling has at least 3 Atlantic crossings, proven self-righting, same size limits as the Privateer. Range is a bit limited without external tanks, and the salon is on the lower deck - not ideal for a coastal cruiser. The hull is glass, but with kevlar-like layers. Both are interesting "crossover" models.

 

[CPseudonym]

Yup. I still check the prices of Bristol Channel Cutter 28s every now and then. My dream solo ocean crosser.

2002 Bristol Channel Cutter Samuel L Morse 28 Sail Boat For Sale

Hate sounding redundant but you have great taste in boats.

 

[Bigsfish]

Hi Eric

I agree 100%. Trawlers come in all sizes , shapes and purpose. We all tend to look at the subject from our personal point of view and our opinions are formed by our personal wants and likes. I know I need to look at some of these subjects with a more open mind.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Fish,
Anything that opens the mind is good.

 

[Bigsfish]

Eric

That's what they told me in the 60s in undergrad school, LSD would open your mind! The profs would invite the students over to experiment. Nor sure it opened my mind but I saw colors I never saw before!

 

[BandB]

Eric

That's what they told me in the 60s in undergrad school, LSD would open your mind! The profs would invite the students over to experiment. Nor sure it opened my mind but I saw colors I never saw before!

First thing that came to my mind from is comment was Timothy Leary. Long before my time, but definitely a 60's thing.

 

[Bigsfish]

BandB

The major saying back then was "never trust anyone over 30". Strange times but "ban the bra", "make love not wear" and "if you can't be with the one you love, love the one your are with". STDs were minor back then, a few pills and you were good to go. So if I seem strange I have a reason.

 

[twistedtree]

"Mr. black read Voyaging Under Power."

Try to find a first edition as the 2nd and on were taken over and published by a boat building co to schlock their product.

I would recommend the latest edition which I think is #4. It was NOT updated by anyone associated with any builder, and is much more current than the earlier editions. The early editions were very preachy about how it's possible to cross oceans in small power boats. That tone was understandable at the time, but Beebe's thesis is now well proven, and all the old preaching is really tedious. The 4th edition by Dennis Ulmstot (sp?) is a really good modernization of a great book.

 

[Lady soft]

Anything with sail. Never a motorboat, unless it's a cruise ship.

 

[Wxx3]

The Nordhavn 46 line of boats has crossed many an ocean and several circumnavigations. The Krogen 42 has also crossed oceans. Larger boats the 48s, and 54s, etc all the way up to the 62s of these lines have crossed multiple oceans.

They are still fiberglass boats with single engines (rather low powered) so that they have long ranges. Stabilizers, active or passive are highly useful. Most have watermakers although for an ocean crossing the normal tankage would be sufficient 300 to 600 US gallons.

The Diesel Ducks, Willards and DeFevers all are similarly capable boats although there are not as many of them.

While you certainly can design much more capable boats for ocean crossing than those mentioned you are not talking about a production boat but a one-off.

Clearly a steel hull would reduce the damage if you hit a submerged object at sea, but what is the real likelihood of that happening. Many of the other improvements we can name also have just a small increase in safety.

Anyway, the Nordhavn 46 has reigned as the ocean crosser since it was first produced. In part because the newer boats, the Nordhavn 47, etc have not sold in the same numbers.

I actually think the Krogen 48 is a better compromise in what you need and want in a boat. I think the Krogen 48 is the best passagemaker size if money is an object.

 

[Bay Pelican]

I actually think the Krogen 48 is a better compromise in what you need and want in a boat. I think the Krogen 48 is the best passagemaker size if money is an object.

Richard, the Krogen 48 is a reasonable choice as the better of the two. It would be my preference if I were buying one or the other. Mostly because of livability of the Krogen 48 when not crossing oceans. The center stateroom, crash bulkhead and smaller pilot house windows of the Nordhavn 46 are advantages when crossing an ocean, negatives when coastal cruising.

Calm seas.

 

[FF]

"Clearly a steel hull would reduce the damage if you hit a submerged object at sea, but what is the real likelihood of that happening."

Most cruisers will use the same "low power" routes shown in "Ocean Passages for the World" as shipping.

Sea Land cargo boxes lost from container ships have been the great fear for 5 decades.

They do not show up on radar and most cruisers helm watch wont catch them.

Steel might deflect severe damage , but quality GRP can do as well, or better..

There is little penalty (besides cost) to add skin layers to a good GRP cored boat to make it tougher, adding thicker steel gets heavy very rapidly.

In mid ocean things that go BUMP in the night are exciting.

 

[Bay Pelican]

"
In mid ocean things that go BUMP in the night are exciting.

Yep! During the night one time off the north coast of the Dominican Republic we hit something, loud thug sound. Woke me. Frightened my wife. No water coming in. Continued on. Dove on the boat next day, no damage, no mark.

We were fortunate as the north coast of the DR is a lee shore with lots of rocky reefs. Makes you value the watertight crash bulkhead in some of the offshore boats.

 

[Mako]

In mid ocean things that go BUMP in the night are exciting.

Oh, I thought things were gunna get R-rated here. Shucks