Balance your loads and draw less amps

[Bud]

I guess the usual electrical wizards have given up on this thread for a reason?

Well i work with electricity everyday just because you can not understand the difference between series loads and parallel loads in a 250v two phase cicuit is not a reflection on balancing loads its on you. Pick up a copy of Turtle Times by MTOA sept issue it is explained in an article "Balanced Loads" in the engineering corner.

 

[psneeld]

I did read it.


Some people can understand things but not explain it well or teach it.


I get what you are saying, but not all of it is the way you are saying it and I think that's why the dry spell of those that can.


You are making it sound like something is magically vanishing and we both know better.... and I unfortunately can't describe the tech in layman's terms or engineering terms either. I know it has something to do with using half of the 250v sine curve to give 50A power to 2 legs.... But saying half the power goes away is witchcraft not science.


I understand that balancing is more efficient, but realistically, how much more? If wattage is listed the same....then only line losses (insignificant) mut be the difference. If a 240V appliance is that much more efficient, then I get it.



Even Mr Healys explanation describes "work"/"wattage"....not just vanishing amps. I get his article and blog, not your posts beyond this slight efficiency factor that is often overidden by practicality.


Like I said I think you scared off the people willing to debate the concept other than my attempt to let newbies know that there is a practical side to this that needs understanding, not the engineering.

 

[Bud]

I did read it.


Some people can understand things but not explain it well or teach it.


I get what you are saying, but not all of it is the way you are saying it and I think that's why the dry spell of those that can.


You are making it sound like something is magically vanashing and we both know better and I unfortunately can't describe the tech in layman's terms. I know it has something to do with the using half of the 250v sine curve to give 50A power to 2 legs.... But saying half the power goes away is witchcraft not science.


Even Mr Healys explanation describes "work"/"wattage"....not just vanishing amps.


Like I said I think you scared off the people willing to debate the concept other than my attempt to let newbies know that there is a practical side to this that needs understanding, not the engineering.

Well it is kind of unique. Where you can have one 125v load drawing 20 amps and then you can put a second 20 amp load in series on the second leg and not increase the amps on the first leg and bring the nuetral current to zero. Because the two legs are 180 degrees out of phase. This is well understood in the electrical industry.
Their is nothing to debate thats why they were not responding to your posts. The only people debating are the ones who do not understand.

 

[psneeld]

The funny part is where guys like you think the rest of us are behind you.


Responding to my posts?



I get all that...


I get out of phase.....sort of...and explained by people who "really know".


I get balanced is a good thing.....but only to a point...I don't get where you are making it a bigger deal out of it...which I think David said back on page 1 and probably decided that was enough discussion.

 

[High Wire]

I guess the usual electrical wizards have given up on this thread for a reason?

Oh yeah. Let’s just stick with “balanced is good” and stop arguing over who’s theory explanation is more correct.

 

[tiltrider1]

Yes, balanced is good. It’s about as low on the priority list as you can get.

 

[SteveK]

Agreed, Balanced is good

 

[Bud]

The funny part is where guys like you think the rest of us are behind you.


Responding to my posts?



I get all that...


I get out of phase.....sort of...and explained by people who "really know".


I get balanced is a good thing.....but only to a point...I don't get where you are making it a bigger deal out of it...which I think David said back on page 1 and probably decided that was enough discussion.

I do not think the forum is behind me a matter of fact I have been helped out of a couple of stinky situations by Peggy (Holding tank) in the forum and another time by steve and peggy (water tanks).

You say you get it in one post then in your next post you say something contradicting. It doesn't surprise me that you would lash out at me because this doesn't make sense to you. I have seen that behavior in your previous posts with me. I will have no trouble sleeping knowing I've tryed my best to explain it. Short of putting it in a song and singing it to you.

 

[psneeld]

See post #40, and #60 to get the big picture.

 

[diver dave]

After 10 minutes of reading these rather painful posts, here is my take.

No one has yet forwarded the key point in Bud’s apparent mission of “load balancing”. It really has its basis on using higher voltage rather than using lower voltage to provide a certain amount of power. Take each extreme of the situation.
30 amps of 240v or 60 Amps of 120v. They each will work, but there is a key difference, and that is wire losses. Running this “balanced load” will sustain exactly 1/4 the wire loss wasted as heat.
Real world example: a hundred feet of no10 wire has 0.1 ohm of Resistance. The power loss at 30 A is 900x .1 or 90 Watts. That is power u r buying to just heat the wire. No useable work. Now, in the “non-balanced” example; u have 60x60 x .1= 360 Watts of wasted power required to do the same work.

 

[diver dave]

Now, someone clever might say: hey, #10 is only rated at 30 amps. True; but for any example you pick, whether its 1 amp or 30 amps, the difference is 4:1.

 

[sunchaser]

Bud
I'm only guessing, but are you referring to Bob Kassal's various articles over the years on split phase? If so, his whole thesis is that many shore and marina installations are set up and and designed to run on less capital intensive split phase which then allows 208 volts rather than 240 volts.

Kassal's writings are not oriented towards trying to balance loads to avoid neutral back feed. More they are pointed towards advising boaters to be careful of their motors which truly need 240 volts for their survival. This could include some, not all AC units, water pumps, compressors and electric driven hydraulic motors.

His articles and responses over the years are focused on advising we boaters to be mindful of our 240 volt motors, pretty well giving a free ride to 110 motors. His mantra does not appear to be pointed towards working on balancing loads, which he freely admits is a near impossible proposition.

If you're referring to someone other than Kassal regarding leg and load balancing, who might that be?

 

[Bud]

Bud
I'm only guessing, but are you referring to Bob Kassal's various articles over the years on split phase? If so, his whole thesis is that many shore and marina installations are set up and and designed to run on less capital intensive split phase which then allows 208 volts rather than 240 volts.

Kassal's writings are not oriented towards trying to balance loads to avoid neutral back feed. More they are pointed towards advising boaters to be careful of their motors which truly need 240 volts for their survival. This could include some, not all AC units, water pumps, compressors and electric driven hydraulic motors.

His articles and responses over the years are focused on advising we boaters to be mindful of our 240 volt motors, pretty well giving a free ride to 110 motors. His mantra does not appear to be pointed towards working on balancing loads, which he freely admits is a near impossible proposition.

If you're referring to someone other than Kassal regarding leg and load balancing, who might that be?

The article I referred to is written by Jim Healy with MTOA in the Turtle Times.
The main objective of the thread was to inform boaters of the benefit of balanced loads in a 125v/250v, 50 amp service. Specifically the use of putting 125v loads in series that would be running at the same time. The end result even if not perfectly balanced will increase amount of work you can do with your service.