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Old 07-16-2023, 06:05 PM   #1
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Hydraulic steering mystery

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Trying to figure out the black hydraulic holding tank connected to the auto pilot pump. It seems like an overflow tank but its at the lowest point of the system and it has a screw cap with a vent hole, which I’m assuming is for air in the system, but once again it’s at the low point. I’m also wondering if i should keep the valve closed to the tank, so it doesn’t leak out the vent hole. The installation becomes more suspect as pipe thread tape was used on the compression fittings. Any help is appreciated.
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Old 07-16-2023, 06:28 PM   #2
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Could you take a better picture of the label on the hydraulic tank.

Also, could you explain orientation of this picture. Is the tank on a wall supplying the pump?

Ted
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Old 07-16-2023, 06:34 PM   #3
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I suspect it is there to ease servicing of the AP pump. If the pump is removed and reinstalled or develops a major leak, air will eventually make its way all the way to the top. But, if you were to service the pump and could fill it from that low reservoir upon installation or after fixing a leak there, you might could get most of the air out right there and then only need to bleed at the top of the boat whatever air is left over there. It could make the job go much faster.

I'd leave it full and the valve closed unless and until it is needed.

That's just my guess. Someone else may have seen exactly this before.
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Old 07-16-2023, 06:47 PM   #4
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I have used a tank like that on a Wagner continuously running system. The tank was the highest point in the system. It functioned similar to the overflow bottle in a coolant system providing space for the fluid to expand and contract. I can't see how the tank would work in your system. Open the valve and fluid is going to flow down to the tank because it is open to the air. I'm stumped.
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Old 07-16-2023, 06:48 PM   #5
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Hope this helps
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Old 07-16-2023, 06:51 PM   #6
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I suspect it is there to ease servicing of the AP pump. If the pump is removed and reinstalled or develops a major leak, air will eventually make its way all the way to the top. But, if you were to service the pump and could fill it from that low reservoir upon installation or after fixing a leak there, you might could get most of the air out right there and then only need to bleed at the top of the boat whatever air is left over there. It could make the job go much faster.

I'd leave it full and the valve closed unless and until it is needed.

That's just my guess. Someone else may have seen exactly this before.
That is what I was thinking as well.
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Old 07-16-2023, 07:22 PM   #7
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I wouldn't close the valve.

The sticker is pretty clear that once the system is bled, the tank should only be 2/3 full.

Take this as unverified:
From my recollection, if you backup and hit the rudder (on a rock, piling or bulkhead), forcing it over, the cylinder compresses the fluid on one side. Fluid is not compressible and the pressure skyrockets. The pump has a pressure relief valve on either of the cylinder. When the pump builds pressure on one side, the over pressure valve on the other side opens and allows the cylinder to move. It is my recollection that the reservoir provides a place for the fluid to go, if you strike an object with the rudder while in reverse.

I have the same autopilot pump with my Hynautic Steering system, and that hose from the pump goes to the steering reservoir.

Ted
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Old 07-16-2023, 07:27 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Portage_Bay View Post
I have used a tank like that on a Wagner continuously running system. The tank was the highest point in the system. It functioned similar to the overflow bottle in a coolant system providing space for the fluid to expand and contract. I can't see how the tank would work in your system. Open the valve and fluid is going to flow down to the tank because it is open to the air. I'm stumped.
In the event that the pump, and not some other part of the system, is empty or very low, e.g. after servicing or replacing it, I think this may possibly ease bleeding the system. I think it might work as below.

First, leaving all of the valves closed (they were probably closed for the service), re-install the AP pump. Then open only the valve to the reservoir. Let as much air from the pump vent up into the reservoir and as much fluid from the reservoir drain down into the pump as will drain in. I don't know how much will drain in, but likely some. The movement of air will be eased by the reservoir's vent. Every bit that drains in is air that doesn't need to work its way to the very top and be bled there.

Next, open the reservoir at the top and be ready to keep it from going empty.

Then, get some rags by the vent in the reservoir and open the two valves by the AP. With these valves open, with luck, the head pressure will move fluid from the reservoir at the top through the system down into the AP pump. But, instead of it displacing all of the air into the loop, it'll displace some of it into that reservoir and let it vent out there. I'm assuming some will go there just because it'll follow the fluid flow and the reservoir is higher and very well vented very nearby.

Finally, once it vents as fills as much as it can, I'd close it off and bleed the system as normally the rest of the way, however much that is, from the top and by exercising the pumps to get any trapped air out.

In practice I don't know well this will work. I don't know how much fluid from the reservoir will be able to drain down while air vents into the reservoir. I don't know how well fluid can move through the pump without it being exercised. I don't know how much air will go into the reservoir vs up the lines. Etc. Etc. Etc.

But, every bit of air that gets vented down there is air that doesn't need to be vented at the top by a million turns of the wheel.

So, I don't know if this does any good or not, but I'll bet that was what someone was thinking.

If this was my boat, I'd leave it closed until I needed to service the AP pump and then conduct the experiment. But, heck, since it isn't my boat. And, I won't be the one cleaning up the fluid and rags, I hope the OP is a devout scientist and drains some fluid out of the pump and give it a try, you know, for science.

What I wouldn't do is take it out just to take it out. It might come in handy one day. And, that valve will take it out o the system now, anyway.

Just my thoughts.
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Old 07-16-2023, 07:34 PM   #9
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In that placement, the valve should stay closed unless servicing or filling the pump.
The system setup could be improved by relocating the reservoir higher in the boat.
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Old 07-16-2023, 07:36 PM   #10
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I wouldn't close the valve.

The sticker is pretty clear that once the system is bled, the tank should only be 2/3 full.

Take this as unverified:
From my recollection, if you backup and hit the rudder (on a rock, piling or bulkhead), forcing it over, the cylinder compresses the fluid on one side. Fluid is not compressible and the pressure skyrockets. The pump has a pressure relief valve on either of the cylinder. When the pump builds pressure on one side, the over pressure valve on the other side opens and allows the cylinder to move. It is my recollection that the reservoir provides a place for the fluid to go, if you strike an object with the rudder while in reverse.

I have the same autopilot pump with my Hynautic Steering system, and that hose from the pump goes to the steering reservoir.

Ted
Hey Ted,

That makes a lot of sense. But I think of that as on a 3-hose system where it returns to the upper reservoir. In this case, it isn't clear to me how the fluid gets back into the system. That reservoir also looks very small as compared to the size of a ram or two. I didn't hear anything about being able to set pressure, or a pressure relief valve -- just a vent.

What you are describing sounds a lot like something I think was use on some Trojans, among others. See attached. But, I think in those cases, as shown, the pressure was controlled and there was a return path imposed by one way valves, etc.
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Old 07-16-2023, 07:51 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post

I wouldn't close the valve.

The sticker is pretty clear that once the system is bled, the tank should only be 2/3 full.

Ted
I agree with this. DO NOT CLOSE the valve!

I dont know how one forces the fluid into the system at time of installation but, once bled, the fluid will not run back into the reservoir because that would cause a vacuum in the system. I would guess that the reservoir accomodates thermal expansion/contraction of the fluid.
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Old 07-16-2023, 07:53 PM   #12
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I agree with this. DO NOT CLOSE the valve!

I dont know how one forces the fluid into the system at time of installation but, once bled, the fluid will not run back into the reservoir because that would cause a vacuum in the system. I would guess that the reservoir accomodates thermal expansion/contraction of the fluid.
I hear you. Just know that there is also a reservoir at the top for this, too. And this reservoir drains into the system from the highest point.

What I don't know is, if in this installation, the top reservoir is vented to ease self-bleeding or not.

I also don't know, as the rams move fluid and generate pressure disparities is how much they can force fluid fluid in this direction.

One could leave it open, exercise everything, and see what happens. If it don't leak, after heavy dockside testing and some sea trials, I agree with you.
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Old 07-16-2023, 07:53 PM   #13
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It's an overflow/resevoir. the valve should be open.

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Old 07-16-2023, 07:57 PM   #14
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It's an overflow/resevoir. the valve should be open.

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Hey Pete, I know it is labeled that way. But, I've never seen one installed low like this. That what makes me think that someone may have bought the reservoir, but used it low instead of high as a service aid. I just don't know.

Given all of the ideas, I think I'd test it open. I'll leak or it won't.
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Old 07-16-2023, 08:03 PM   #15
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In my opinion (which is worth no more than you're paying me), the system is probably bled by the helm pump(s). If so, then the only purpose for this reservoir is to collect fluid from an over pressure valve.

Can you find a manufacturer's name on the helm pump and source an online manual? Maybe the same for the autopilot manufacturer.

Ted
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Old 07-16-2023, 08:53 PM   #16
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Quote:
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One could leave it open, exercise everything, and see what happens. If it don't leak, after heavy dockside testing and some sea trials, I agree with you.
This is what I would do . . .
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Old 07-16-2023, 09:53 PM   #17
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The tank is a fill tank used for the initial filling of the pump, to purge air from the pump, and used as a pump reservoir tank. Most people with Wagner helm pumps fill at the top helm. Included are 2 plumbing diagrams. One with the tank and one without. The tank doesn't have pressure. As long as the pump has oil, it doesn't draw oil from the tank. The valve and vent can be left open.

You don't need the tank if you have a dedicated line to the bottom of the helm pump. The line needs a gradual rise so any air goes to the helm pump tank and doesn't create an air lock.
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Old 07-16-2023, 10:43 PM   #18
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The tank is a fill tank used for the initial filling of the pump, to purge air from the pump, and used as a pump reservoir tank. Most people with Wagner helm pumps fill at the top helm. Included are 2 plumbing diagrams. One with the tank and one without. The tank doesn't have pressure. As long as the pump has oil, it doesn't draw oil from the tank. The valve and vent can be left open.

You don't need the tank if you have a dedicated line to the bottom of the helm pump. The line needs a gradual rise so any air goes to the helm pump tank and doesn't create an air lock.
Good find, Lepke - Looking this Wagner info I see a couple of things:

1 the left hand diagram is for a system that has electric pump only. The reservoir appears to be at the high point of the system.

2 the RH diagram shows a system with both electric pump and manual (helm) pump. The reservoir is contained in the upper helm pump and a "purge" line is included which leads (continuously upwards) from the pump 3rd connection to the reservoir in the upper helm.

The above makes me think that your system should not have the lower reservoir, but should have the purge line. With the vented reservoir in the upper helm, I think that fluid will slowly migrate from this upper reservoir to the lower reservoir.
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Old 07-16-2023, 11:45 PM   #19
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Try the Wagner web site,
https://wagnerengineering.ca/
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Old 07-17-2023, 12:51 AM   #20
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Thanks for all the information and advice! I’m going to do some experimenting and report back.
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