Another US Navy collision

[firstbase]

Here is an interesting perspective and the AIS tracks in video.
It's scary:


valvanuz
gCaptain Crew


Interesting AIS tracks:http://video.dailymail.co.uk/video/...489993/960x540_MP4_3793256630306489993.mp4205

I'm getting link "Not Found".

 

[Wxx3]

Try this

http://gcaptain.com/uss-john-s-mccain-collision-ais-animation-shows-tankers-track-during-collision/


Looks to me like the the second ship to pass Along saw the DD and made sharp turn to stbd to avoid both.

 

[Ski in NC]

Looks like the most plausible scenario was the McCain crossing the shipping lanes from the north. But why???

 

[ksanders]

The big question is simply...

If we as recreational boaters, with one person at the helm, and a simple RADAR, can avoid hitting a huge cargo ship...

Why cant a US Navy warship, with all its wiz bang systems, and crew do the same?

There is no operating condition that should or coud result in a collision at sea. No mechanical failure, short of a complete loss of steering AND engine control that would result in a collision.

We need to remember the folks that died. They were kids like our kids that wanted to travel the world, learn a trade, get money for college, or serve our country. Now they are dead. They did not die in battle with guns blazing, no they died unnecessarily.

 

[FF]

"And then the times they reduce headcount but all the people just end up assigned somewhere else."

WHERE?

When reduced from a 600 ship Navy to a 200 ship fleet where are these surplus seamen sent?

 

[psneeld]

Especially when shore billets are civilianized.

 

[kthoennes]

The big question is simply...

If we as recreational boaters, with one person at the helm, and a simple RADAR, can avoid hitting a huge cargo ship...Why cant a US Navy warship, with all its wiz bang systems, and crew do the same?...

That's what I keep thinking too. I know drawing parallels between small recreational boats and giant ships is a shaky exercise, but the last time I took my relatively microscopic 40 footer through New York Harbor in broad daylight and around the southern end of Manhattan, I was lit up like a Christmas tree. I had every electronic system I had on board and four sets of eyeballs watching every direction. AIS, radar, new VHF radio display with AIS blips, chartplotter, everything I could turn on. I'm microscopic compared to those big ships, but I acted like I was the Queen Mary and watched ship vectors two miles away out of caution. I assumed zero maneuverability on anything bigger than me out there and planned my course accordingly. If one recreational amateur like me exercises that much caution in crowded shipping areas, then how in the world... I just don't get it.

 

[Wxx3]

"And then the times they reduce headcount but all the people just end up assigned somewhere else."

WHERE?

When reduced from a 600 ship Navy to a 200 ship fleet where are these surplus seamen sent?

Manpower was reduced also.
The Navy is half the size it was in 1990, yet the requirements are virtually the same.

In my mind it's a total failure of leadership of our military services.
They continually say yes to doing more with less.

 

[Wxx3]

Looks like the most plausible scenario was the McCain crossing the shipping lanes from the north. But why???

When I saw rust AIS data, it made me shiver. I spent 45 min trying to get to the other side of the channel on the approach to Dublin. It was only 1/2 nm, but with current against me, and fast ferries, It was hair raising.
The traffic was 1/10th, maybe 1/100th of what I saw in that 2 min clip.

I could never cross that TSS.

 

[Benthic2]

I suspect we will not really know until some of the active participants cycle out of active service, and will be able to speak freely. At some point...someone will come forward and say " I was the lookout and radioed the bridge but they didn't take action.....", or "I was the helmsman and my superior said hold your course"

I think every possible scenario falls into one of three categories( this applies to both the Fitz & McCain ):

#1. Was not aware of the other ship.
#2 Was aware of the other ship and decided not to act.
#3 Was aware of the ship and took wrong or insufficient action.

The first choice seems really unlikely given the amount of human and electronic monitoring we assume was available.

The second is possible, as it could have been the "We're the US Navy, you will get out of our way or else" attitude, but this seems unlikely as at least with the Fitz, I can't see anyone less than the Captain making that call, and he was asleep in his bunk.

Scenario #3 then becomes the only reasonable alternative, as unlikely as it seems.

I can say from some experience that action and communication under pressure become complicated. I have a graduate degree in management, and getting the 13 year old boy to drop the stern anchor and the wife to cut the engine and raise the outdrive while I jumped off bow as we approached a crowed beach in a 6 knot current was a humbling experience the first time we tried it. Thank god for good samaritans and better fenders.

Before anyone jumps all over me, I'm not comparing beaching a bowrider to commanding a destroyer, I'm just acknowleging that the more complex the action, and the more links in the chain, the harder a process becomes. Hopefully this proces will lead to reconsiderion of many accepted practices and the asking of questions that need to be asked:

Do our sailors have drills for what to do when a freighter is at 100 yards and closing fast ? As the waterways get more crowded does the training regimen need to adapt to situations like that ?

We are at a time when autonomous unmanned shipping is close to being a reality. If that's the case, should there be a central "Navy Control Center" that says: Attention US McCain....are you aware of the freighter 1/2 mile to your south east ?"

Are junior officers under so much pressure to advance that waking the captain makes you look unsure and unqualified ?

Would it make sense to have dual captains on board ?

Should navigation responsibility be entirely separate from shipboard management of people, weapons, offense and defense capability etc ?

Does anyone track collisions per mile ? Are destroyers operating so much more than other vessels that thier collisions are just a matter of statistics ? What is the average mile/collision of a tanker, freighter, carrier, destroyer etc. Find variances and explore them. The fact that these incidents all happened in the 7th fleet seems to indicate a localized issue. Why?

As tragic as these situations have been, with 17 sailors killed and many more wounded, this is an opportunity for the Navy to reconsider methods and re-evaluate procedures and find a root cause. Hopefully the parents of the sailors, Congress, and Navy Leadership will make sure that everything possible is done to keep our sailors safe.

 

[LarryM]

Remember, they are still investigating a steering casualty, and why the watch in after steering did not, or could not immediately regain control of the ship.

Loss of steering at a critical moment could certainly have been a factor, but this kind of failure is one they definitely train for.

 

[Benthic2]

One of the talking heads pointed out that merely accelerating...or by using port vs starbord engines should have allowed enough avoidance capability so that the loss of steering alone should not have been a factor.

 

[LarryM]

Any former USN SWO's on the forum that would care to chime in?

 

[twistedtree]

I hate to question it, but a sudden loss of steering just before an accident, that miraculously fixes itself right afterwards? It sure does sound like an excuse.

 

[LarryM]

Oh yes, I am questioning it too.

 

[Benthic2]

by questioning......do you think the Navy is making excuses...or suggesting outside forces disabled the steering ?

 

[markpierce]

From personal observation, cruise ships have at least three personnel on the bridge. (At critical times such as during docking, there are probably more but the passenger view window is closed during such times.) Some ships have repeater stations available for passenger observation showing ship navigational displays, twenty-fold more complex/complete than anything I've seen on pleasure boats.

Nevertheless, one ship we were onboard collided with a barge in the Montevideo channel in broad daylight. The captain was quickly replaced.

 

[MRRiley]

My understanding is that they were entering the traffic separation for entry to Changi naval base on the eastern end of Singapore for a scheduled port call later that morning.

Standard pre-arrival check list includes steering checks from all control stations, including aft steering. It's not unusual to have a glitch in the shifting of control from the bridge to aft and return. Simple misalignment of steering motors "a" on the bridge, "b" in aft steering can cause a "casualty". It's not uncommon and procedures exist to swiftly remedy the situation. Especially since comms are established and one shift had already taken place.

Yes, to an extent, any vessel can be steered with engines, or since we're talking variable pitch props here, propellers. The question is did they think of it and was it needed? If the shift of steering control was a continued problem and they understood their current maneuvering situation, they should have been able to swiftly maneuver as necessary.

Honestly, from my perspective, it looks as though they swung the stern into the bow of the freighter. I've seen similar situations many times with junior officers, they forget the pivot point is about 1/3 of the ship length. So they think they are turning away from something but neglect, if a ship is 600 ft, the following 400 ft going the opposite direction.

Tragedy no matter the cause.

PS - the odds that they were hacked is approaching multiple decimal places of 0...

 

[MRRiley]

After watching the G Captain link, it appears they shot the stern of the first merchant and hadn't realized there was another close astern. They figured it out, turned hard to stbd to avoid, too little too late. They should never have been in the scheme doing checks or with a steering casualty. Those guys are moving through there, 18 -20 Kts is not uncommon.

 

[LarryM]

by questioning......do you think the Navy is making excuses...or suggesting outside forces disabled the steering ?

I would like to see the results of the Navy's accident investigation and the chain of events that ultimately led to the collision. If at any point leading up to the accident, a link is broken by a sound decision, the accident is typically prevented. I doubt these will be available to the public for years.

 

[twistedtree]

by questioning......do you think the Navy is making excuses...or suggesting outside forces disabled the steering ?

I think it's people making excuses. I don't believe it was caused by hacking or some other form of espionage - not for a minute.

 

[Opu]

AP is reporting that divers have recovered remains of all 10 missing sailors. No further details at the moment.

 

[AlaskaProf]

I would like to see the results of the Navy's accident investigation ... I doubt these will be available to the public for years.

Not so sure. Here's the Antietam story:

 

[LarryM]

Not so sure. Here's the Antietam story:

Now that's encouraging, less than 3 months and the findings are available to the public. Maybe we will know sooner than I originally anticipated.

 

[Wxx3]

I think this Letter to the Editor from today's WSJ hits the nail on the head:

"I was the officer of the deck on the USS Santa Barbara when we sailed through the Singapore Strait in the dead of night. It was tense due to all the traffic.

I changed course and speed multiple times, following the rules of the sea to prevent any collision.

I was trained by a very experienced Navy destroyer captain who told us never ever be in a situation where you had to rely on another ship to follow the rules of the sea to avoid a collision"

Bill Person
Bloomfield Village, Mich.

 

[AlaskaProf]

I think this Letter to the Editor from today's WSJ hits the nail on the head:
...

I was trained by a very experienced Navy destroyer captain who told us never ever be in a situation where you had to rely on another ship to follow the rules of the sea to avoid a collision"

Bill Person
Bloomfield Village, Mich.

Just so. As I tell anyone who is steering my boat (only I "have the conn"), "you have the right-of-way in this situation, but you can never be sure that he knows that."

 

[psneeld]

There is a difference sometimes between having the "deck" and having the "conn".

There are times where experience is needed to interpret the rules, so yes there are times where who is stand on or give way can be debateable.

Rule 9 Narrow Channel is a great one. Unlesz 2 vessels are talking, how can one know the other is only capable of navigating within the channel? What determines a narrow channel? Is one vessel not local and refuses to leave the channel for lack of deoth info yet the other knows its deep.....etc...etc...

Thats why part time recreational guys can sometimes read the rules, but not understand the importance of thinking beyond give way if the other guy is to starboard.

 

[BandB]

Many long years ago, well about 1985, my driver's training teacher loved to tell us about the tombstone reading:

This is the grave of Mike O’Day
Who died maintaining his right of way.
His right was clear, his will was strong,
But he’s just as dead as if he’d been wrong.​

 

[FlyWright]

USS McCain heading to Japan via heavy lift.

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/04/us-navy-to-repair-damaged-destroyer-in-japan/