Another US Navy collision

[Lepke]

I stood navy bridge watches on a WWII built destroyer. Something has changed since my days. We always had 3 lookouts plus the two deck officers and usually a couple signalmen (that don't exist anymore). I notice I don't often see people outside the bridge at sea.

[FF]

"In February, the Navy reported nearly two-thirds of its F/A 18 strike fighter jets are currently unable to fly, grounded due to repair delays or because they are awaiting spare parts. The USMC reported 70% of its combat aircraft were unable to fly. Its usable planes are being pushed to the limit."

True BUT much of the reason is the military scraps aircraft parts that wear out.
So must wait (and pay) for new anything.

Airlines do not have the same policy , they prefer rebuilt parts that are easily kept in stock, and are vastly less expensive.

[Nomad Willy]

Larry M wrote;
"The across-the-board funding cuts to military budgets that resulted under the Obama administration’s Budget Control Act, known as sequestration, have shrunk the number of available aircraft and warships in the American arsenal to their lowest point since World War II."

So you're saying we should have a bigger defense budget than we do now? I think we're rediculously many many times above the next highest military budget of all the nations of the world. If we have that many enimies we need to do something else. Or not do what we're doing now.

[psneeld]

The transition is hard.

Often Congressional oversight committees nip funds from certain columns, resulting in too many personnel and hardware for training and repair funds.

Then instead of allowing the military to balance things by cancelling new orders or closing bases, those actions are denied.

If you are going to keep a certain sized force you owe it to them to make them the best, or why would they bother to serve? I can pretty well guess who would wind up in a secondary rate military.....

The Russian military has fought the same issues for decades.

[Mike.p]

Originally Posted by LarryM

"A US Navy official told CNN the McCain had experienced a loss of steering before the collision, but that steering had been regained."

It is certainly too early to know if this contributed to the incident, or if indeed it actually happened, but . . . . .

The across-the-board funding cuts to military budgets that resulted under the Obama administration’s Budget Control Act, known as sequestration, have shrunk the number of available aircraft and warships in the American arsenal to their lowest point since World War II.

The Navy fleets had a $500-million ship maintenance budget shortfall leftover from 2016 that continues to grow in 2017. The shipyards and aviation depots are failing to get ships and aircraft through maintenance periods on time.

In February, the Navy reported nearly two-thirds of its F/A 18 strike fighter jets are currently unable to fly, grounded due to repair delays or because they are awaiting spare parts. The USMC reported 70% of its combat aircraft were unable to fly. Its usable planes are being pushed to the limit. I couldn't readily find the same availability statistics for the Navy's warships, but they are undoubtedly operationally affected as well.

Training has similarly suffered and SWO's (Surface Warfare Officers) are being pushed into the fleet with less training than ever before.

IMO, I believe we (the public) are just beginning to see the results of these budget cuts to a military deployed throughout the globe and stretched far too thin.

No matter what the budget cuts were, the faster, more powerful & easier operating USS John S. McCain should have been able to avoid a collision with a merchant ship moving at 10 knots.
Neither Murphy's law.
The truth is out there.

[stormboy]

Blaming budget cuts is total BS,
following colregs and keeping an adequate lookout are the most basic requirements for any vessel, anywhere in the world.
With over 300 trained sailors aboard, this kind of disaster should never happen, even gear failure should bring forth a back up.
The Captain and duty officer should face a court martial......he is ultimately the responsible party.....If I killed ten people by driving a car in a dangerous manner I would expect some very serious jail time.
I feel the pain of the families of the missing sailors, they deserved a better fate than this.

[Steve]

During a haul out in Dulac Shipyard, Houma a few months ago I noticed this launch in the weeds. I think it was brought in for restoration the Regional Military Museum. Waiting on funds, I heard.

[Mike.p]

Originally Posted by psneeld

The Russian military has fought the same issues for decades.

Historical comparisons are misleading.

[psneeld]

Doesn't the saying go something like......Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it....?

Plus factored in plenty of generalization.....

And to be clear.....I don't think budget cuts are to blame...probably.

I would like to know more about the possible steering casualty before armchairing......

[DaleP]

There needs to be cleansing of Admirals in the Pacific fleet... maybe CincNav also.

[Mike.p]

Originally Posted by psneeld

Doesn't the saying go something like......Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it....?

Plus factored in plenty of generalization.....

And to be clear.....I don't think budget cuts are to blame...probably.

I would like to know more about the possible steering casualty before armchairing......

Again, don't compare Russian military issues with anything else unless you have been working there. I have been since November 1989 and I am still at present.

[Group9]

We have a nephew in a very old nuclear sub. According to him, repairs and maintenance are not keeping up with the age of the boat. Scary.

[silentfaith]

my destroyer dd777 would perform night op's with all lights off. not even smoking a cig when lights out. likely the cargo ship did not see it because it looks like it ran into us. i remember slamming into a concrete dock on our ship in the med, knocked me off my feet but our captain was completly insane so that was normal.

[psneeld]

So the basics of lack of funds but too many personnel and too much harware is a good formula?

Granted their cash flow has been up and down, but I doubt everyone from journalists to think tankers have been wrong in tbe "show vs real capability" that Russia has been aying for a long time. Recent trends in the last decade excluded.

Are you saying the entire Russian military is well funded and trained? All of their hardware is maintained to readiness and soares are abundant?

[Mike.p]

Originally Posted by psneeld

So the basics of lack of funds but too many personnel and too much harware is a good formula?

Are you saying the entire Russian military is well funded and trained? All of their hardware is maintained to readiness and soares are abundant?

No.
Don't twist my words.
But sorry I'd forgotten you are a 'Guru'.

[psneeld]

Just repeating what I have read about from various sources.

Diesn't really matter, take away quality training time, and reduce spare parts inventory and it hurts any organization.

[Mule]

Let me preface this with this statement. Any collison involving a US Navy warship, unless intentional for mission purposes , is totally unacceptable. Period. No matter who is in violation of rules of the road, unless intentional by the USN, again UNACCEPTABLE!

I have some experience here as a 3 Class Boatswain Mate and many, many hours as Bosun of the watch, lookout, status board that merges CIC Radar-lookout information for the Officer of the Deck. I do not know what organizational changes have been made since 1970. The Navy may have made changes in what a watch section consist of, that I do not know. But these collisions are still totally unacceptable.

I realize they do not use AIS. At the very least they should be using AIS receivers and considering their recent track record perhaps they need to revisit that and in heavy traffic areas use 2way AIS. I am sure they can spoof the broadcast and not show who and what they are.

No doubt, whatever they are doing needs adjustment.

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Mule

Let me preface this with this statement. Any collison involving a US Navy warship, unless intentional for mission purposes , is totally unacceptable. Period. No matter who is in violation of rules of the road, unless intentional by the USN, again UNACCEPTABLE!

.

Isn't any collision on the water unacceptable? These just perhaps more so. Almost every collision is avoidable. I took driver's training in high school 32 years ago and about the only specific I remember is "Defensive Driving." That sank in and I still think I follow that today. I assume other cars may not stop. I assume boat helms persons may not be paying attention. I assume many of both may be drunk, on drugs, or sleep deprived or they just may have their mind on something else. I know many of us have at times expressed dislike of back seat drivers. Well, most of my driving is with someone in the front passenger seat and sometimes I think of her as "on watch." Sometimes she helps navigate. Interestingly, boating changed my perspective on assistance from the other seat.

We had a bass boat cross right in front of us today. He should have gone behind us. We slowed down to avoid him. I never once in my thoughts as it was happening thought of who was right and who was wrong, even though it was obvious. All I thought about was pulling back on the throttle and turning slightly to pass behind him.

I don't know the causes of these various accidents involving the Navy. However, I do know regardless of who is at fault on any of them, they need to do better.

[Insequent]

Originally Posted by Mule

I realize they do not use AIS. At the very least they should be using AIS receivers and considering their recent track record perhaps they need to revisit that and in heavy traffic areas use 2way AIS. I am sure they can spoof the broadcast and not show who and what they are.

No doubt, whatever they are doing needs adjustment.

Are you sure they don't have any AIS info? About 10 days ago as I was heading down river and out into the bay I passed an Australian Navy vessel, a little 56m patrol boat. Duties equivalent to US Coastguard vessels. While it was docked it was showing "Australian Warship" on my AIS, not its actual name. But when headed out to sea it's AIS was turned off. I thought that a bit silly while in the busy shipping channels. At sea it might be normal until they wanted to scare away illegal foreign fishing vessels etc. If crew training and procedures are no longer as they should be, then using AIS at appropriate times seems like a no-brainer, although not the ultimate fix.

[BruceK]

It cannot excuse the failure to keep a proper lookout and collision avoidance,but news reports here(credibility unknown)raise the possibility the ship`s systems were hacked/interfered with causing loss of steering.
International tensions are high in the western Pacific. Many countries may have access to interference technology. Possible factor?