ABYC Cite PLEASE?

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twistedtree said:
I think one of the challenges is that these are sometimes very skillfully hidden. I have heard of cases where they are behind removable panels, inside cabinets, and the owner never knew they were there. Aah, the fun of boat ownership. Treasure hunts!
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That's what's so nice about buying a boat with full schematics and a thorough owner's manual, or barring that a manufacturer who still supports their old boats and can supply those and the "as builts" for virtually every hull number they ever produced.
 
Well I have a schematics of the electrical panel. Not much on these old boats.
caltexflanc said:
That's what's so nice about buying a boat with full schematics and a thorough owner's manual, or barring that a manufacturer who still supports their old boats and can supply those and the "as builts" for virtually every hull number they ever produced.
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ASD -
Would love to get a copy of you electrical panel schematics if you wouldn't mind sharing... :)
 
The problem with the schematics is that they don’t account for all the PO modifications...
 
ASD: Surveyors! My surveyor asked what projects I had planned and I told him that I was putting in an isolation transformer. He said “that’s a good idea and I’ll have you redo all the service to the panel.” He put redoing the service to the panel that in as a required action on the survey. He didn’t request the breaker, but we decided it was the right thing to do.

Installing the isolation transformer was a bit of a job. But putting in a double pole breaker was quite easy. The shore power comes in amidships on the port side of a KK42, behind the washer/dryer. There’s an access panel at this location in the amidships head. So we installed a Blueseas 30 amp double pole breaker at that location. I only have one of the 30 amp legs connected on our vessel. The other has been decommissioned. So we sometimes go over the 30 amps if the microwave is switched on. The new breaker is the one that trips if we go over, so we don’t have to go outside in the rain and sleet.

Yes, I used a marine electrician to do the job.

56184840738__8D04EC9A-DB6E-486B-AA21-342B90D922A8.jpg
 
Comodave said:
The problem with the schematics is that they don’t account for all the PO modifications...
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This is very true. I am lucky in the fact I am the 3rd owner of this boat. Not a lot of modifications other than my own. Chasing wires can present a challenge.
 
psneeld said:
Here's my less expensive, homemade version.
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That looks great, very nicely done.

Two small issues, however, one, the wires lack cord grips or strain relief, if you tug on the wire you are tugging on the connections within. That's a requirement for ABYC compliance. Two, the wires are a water "leader", if water drips on some of those wires it can run into the box. Ideally wires should enter junction boxes from the bottom. Or, use a cord grip that's water proof, and/or include a drip loop. Note the waterline inside this box...when I opened the circuit was energized and the water dumped out onto me, fortunately it was fresh.


More importantly, beyond insurers, ABYC, retro-activity of Standards, and boat builders, having a breaker at the point where the power enters the boat is just electrical best practice. Without this, as others have noted, you are relying on the dock breaker, and those are in notoriously poor condition. Furthermore, while the rule says 10 feet, I routinely instruct boat builders and yards to remember that every foot of cable between the inlet and the breaker is potentially unprotected, so the closer the breaker is to the inlet the better.

More on over-current protection here https://www.proboat.com/2016/12/circuit-training-improving-overcurrent-protection/

When I ran a yard I pounded into my electricians to look beyond the rule, and to try and understand its intent. I don't want those who blindly follow rules, I want people who understand why they are doing what they are doing and the goal.
 

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Thank You Mike

rochepoint said:
It is designed to be install near the shore power inlet but doesn't replace the inlet. You unscrew the cover to access the breakers.
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I want to say "Thank You" to the TF family for talking me off a cliff. A special thanks to Rochpoint for steering me to the breaker setup. It took about 2 hours to install. Mostly dealing with enlarging the hole it fits in. I removed the cable tv and phone modular and replaced with what Rochpoint gave me.

Works great and again Thank you.
 

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Well I used the original screw holes and it looks crooked....Crap I installed it according to the Navy manual...LOL
 
ASD
That's pretty much the way most Mfg do it.
I'm a bit confused though...
I'm assuming you have 2 shore power cords as shown but only one breaker?
If so it seems you have one inlet in compliance and one out of compliance?
What am I missing?
 
Both breakers in the one installation hole?
 
Steve DAntonio said:
When I ran a yard I pounded into my electricians to look beyond the rule, and to try and understand its intent. I don't want those who blindly follow rules, I want people who understand why they are doing what they are doing and the goal.
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Bingo!! We do the same here and routinely exceed the standards as myself and our guys understand ABYC standards are not a be-all-end-all of safety. Sadly the standards are lacking and in some cases unsafe.
 
When looking for electrical or fuel system safety guidance I use NFPA 302. The National Fire Protection Association are the same folks that write the National Electric Code. ABYC has its uses but is self regulation of the industry being regulated. Conflicts of interest?
 
Bacchus said:
ASD
That's pretty much the way most Mfg do it.
I'm a bit confused though...
I'm assuming you have 2 shore power cords as shown but only one breaker?
If so it seems you have one inlet in compliance and one out of compliance?
What am I missing?
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obthomas said:
Both breakers in the one installation hole?
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There are 2 breakers. They are "Double Pole, Single Throw" type. If one breaker trips, both breakers trip. See Pic It is not level because of the camera.


obthomas said:
When looking for electrical or fuel system safety guidance I use NFPA 302. The National Fire Protection Association are the same folks that write the National Electric Code. ABYC has its uses but is self regulation of the industry being regulated. Conflicts of interest?
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I agree. It seems a setup with ABYC, surveyors and insurance companies. They treat ABYC recommendations as "LAW" not as a recommendation.
 

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ASD
Is the one you used 2 separate 2 pole breakers - capable of breaking hot and neutral for each of the cords? So total of 4 conductors connected & protected?
The ones I've seen are 2 pole connected so either conductor trips both but I haven't see a single unit that has a pair of Dbl Pole Brkrs breakers.
I've typically see a dbl pole breaker unit with the SS housing & cap for each of the shore power cords. So 2 cords > 2 breaker units... I didn't realize they could fit 2 Dbl Pole Brkrs in one housing and I take it that's what you are saying you have.
Not questioning what you did just trying to confirm availability of double units.
Thnx
 
Just since this hasn't gotten a reply...for the benefit of anyone reading later...I am pretty sure both an ELCI/RCD and a breaker are required within 10ft, not just a breaker.

gkesden said:
Does ABYC E11.11.1 require that this breaker be ELCI or RCD Type A?

If so, are the devices mentioned in this thread ELCI/RCD?

I thought something like one of these would be needed?

-- https://www.westmarine.com/buy/mari...BCp1hPBjI4RMWXAcHxE7TL-q0JvHyb8RoCPigQAvD_BwE


-- https://www.imarineusa.com/Smartplu...EZuDXOaIL8cv-kV46NMiKAR9obBrDVexoCVLwQAvD_BwE
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Bacchus said:
ASD
Is the one you used 2 separate 2 pole breakers - capable of breaking hot and neutral for each of the cords? So total of 4 conductors connected & protected?
The ones I've seen are 2 pole connected so either conductor trips both but I haven't see a single unit that has a pair of Dbl Pole Brkrs breakers.
I've typically see a dbl pole breaker unit with the SS housing & cap for each of the shore power cords. So 2 cords > 2 breaker units... I didn't realize they could fit 2 Dbl Pole Brkrs in one housing and I take it that's what you are saying you have.
Not questioning what you did just trying to confirm availability of double units.
Thnx
Click to expand...

So the survey says:

*C The 110-volt system lacks an intermediate main circuit breaker between the shore power inlet and the circuit breaker panel main breaker. A 50 amp circuit breaker with runs over 10 feet between the panel and shore power inlet should be installed.
Recommendation: Install a 50 amp double pole for both lines near the aft of the salon bulk head.

So when you are looking at the breakers, there are actually 2 breakers. One for each 50 amp shore power inlet. If one blows, they both blow to kill 100% of the power entering the boat.
 
That was what I was interpreting your prior comments to be. If I am correct ABYC requires the dbl pole breaker for each inlet as it requires you to break both current conducting paths - hot and neutral but not the ground.
I'm guessing you wired it to break only the hot wire of each Inlet.
I dig out the reg and add it.

11.10.2.8.1 Each ungrounded current carrying conductor shall be protected by a circuit breaker or fuse.
11.10.2.8.3 Additional Overcurrent Protection - If the location of the main shore power disconnect circuit
breaker is in excess of 10 feet (three meters) from the shore power inlet or the electrical attachment point of
a permanently installed shore power cord, additional fuses or circuit breakers shall be provided within 10
feet (three meters) of the inlet or attachment point to the electrical system of the boat. Measurement is made
along the conductors.

I will bet your existing panel has a dbl pole breaker - with connected toggle - for each of your 2 inlets.

I'm sure PM to CMS can confirm this if there is any interpretation question.
 
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Ok but a breaker only reacts to the 'load and line' of the circuit. If you look on your breaker panel in your boat and there is a "shore power" circuit breaker it is connected to load (black) only, not neutral (white). No where in all my experience as an electrican have I seen a breaker wired for neutral. If you follow the neutral all the way to shore you will find it going to ground (green) then earth ground.
Bacchus said:
That was what I was interpreting your prior comments to be. If I am correct ABYC requires the dbl pole breaker for each inlet as it requires you to break both current conducting paths - hot and neutral but not the ground.
I'm guessing you wired it to break only the hot wire of each Inlet.
I dig out the reg and add it.

11.10.2.8.1 Each ungrounded current carrying conductor shall be protected by a circuit breaker or fuse.
11.10.2.8.3 Additional Overcurrent Protection - If the location of the main shore power disconnect circuit
breaker is in excess of 10 feet (three meters) from the shore power inlet or the electrical attachment point of
a permanently installed shore power cord, additional fuses or circuit breakers shall be provided within 10
feet (three meters) of the inlet or attachment point to the electrical system of the boat. Measurement is made
along the conductors.

I will bet your existing panel has a dbl pole breaker - with connected toggle - for each of your 2 inlets.

I'm sure PM to CMS can confirm this if there is any interpretation question.
Click to expand...
 
On boats, unlike homes, you have to break both the hot and neutral lines on the incoming power. For branch circuits you only have to break the hot line. In the ABYC you quoted it says Each ungrounded current carrying conductors need to be protected by a breaker.
 
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Both of my boats' main breakers have disconnected both hot and neutral. One was wired that way -- in 1977. The other I corrected.

Remember that neutral is...

-- The hot wire in a reverse polarity situation, which can go unnoticed, depending upon other safeguards.
-- Normally a current carrying conductor, just like hot.
-- Not normally bonded to ground aboard the boat, at least when on shore power so, absent other safeguards can develop a potential over length.
-- Has the capacity to carry loads to ground if there is no ELCI/RCD/GFCI

...we can also think about failure modes in biphasic situations like 2x30A or certain 50A service.
 
Bacchus said:
That was what I was interpreting your prior comments to be. If I am correct ABYC requires the dbl pole breaker for each inlet as it requires you to break both current conducting paths - hot and neutral but not the ground.
Click to expand...

You are correct. Not only ABYC but every other marine electrical standard.
It's the law in Canada under TP1332 and in the US under ..........

CFR 183.455 Overcurrent protection: General.
(a) Each ungrounded current-carrying conductor must be protected by a manually reset, tripfree circuit breaker or fuse.
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction said:
If you look on your breaker panel in your boat and there is a "shore power" circuit breaker it is connected to load (black) only, not neutral (white).
No where in all my experience as an electrican have I seen a breaker wired for neutral.
If you follow the neutral all the way to shore you will find it going to ground (green) then earth ground.
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ASD
All my main breakers are dbl pole and the toggles tied together and I would bet $ your main breakers in your panel are as well. If they weren't I would hope the surveyor would have noted that as well.
Your experience as an electrician is likely shore based and there are some significant differences with marine electrical. No criticism of your experience intended. The only reason I kept bringing it up was to make sure you understood the differences and avoided any issues.
You are absolutely correct that neutral is tied to ground ashore but not on the boat. On the boat the neutral is a current carrying conductor. If it wasn't the wire size could /would be significantly smaller without issue.
The fix is fairly simple just add another dbl pole breaker assy and wire the second inlet to it and inlet 1 to the other breaker.
 
Bacchus said:
ASD
All my main breakers are dbl pole and the toggles tied together and I would bet $ your main breakers in your panel are as well. If they weren't I would hope the surveyor would have noted that as well.
Your experience as an electrician is likely shore based and there are some significant differences with marine electrical. No criticism of your experience intended. The only reason I kept bringing it up was to make sure you understood the differences and avoided any issues.
You are absolutely correct that neutral is tied to ground ashore but not on the boat. On the boat the neutral is a current carrying conductor. If it wasn't the wire size could /would be significantly smaller without issue.
The fix is fairly simple just add another dbl pole breaker assy and wire the second inlet to it and inlet 1 to the other breaker.
Click to expand...

Thank Don.

After reading your post I went back to look at my main breaker panel which contains all the boats AC and DC components like switches and circuit breakers. My boat has two 50 amp shore power connections.

Talking only about 120vAC my panel has 2 zones or groups. One group is the air conditioners, ice maker and battery chargers. The other group is everything else.

All 120vAC breakers on the panel are single pole single throw. All are load and line connections, which feeds a main buss.

There are no neutral connections in this panel. The neutral lines coming from shore power or the generator are connected to a main neutral buss.

I have 2 Load busses, 2 neutral busses, Shore ground buss and a ship strap buss and a DC buss, DC ground buss.

This is the design of my electrical system on my 1988 Camargue. Newer boats may have a different configuration but all the basics are the same. There is no voltage leakage (I had ASD tested) and circuit breakers are tested on a regular bases and replaced if fails. I have never seen any burnt wires (conductors) anywhere on ASD.

I will let you make your own conclusions about my electrical system but everything is labeled, the AC Voltage from the shore power and generator are 6AWG wire.

Quite frankly I am impressed with the way the system is set up. I do wish I had a newer electrical panel that lights up when the door is opened and the next door swings open to allow for maintenance on the back of the panel. My panel takes about 45 minutes to remove and is a pain in the a$$, but top of the line in 1988.

Although my boat is set up for 50amp (an option back in 1988), when I am on shore power I am always on a 30amp connection. Said another way, I don't use 50 amp.
 
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From West Marine website
 

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