8 Knots - Are you kidding?

[Todd R]

Originally Posted by Dani-lu

So, where are we? I am leaning towards a semi-displacement, with a good sized ER. I want 2 heads, preferably separate standup showers in each, but I would compromise with only one separate standup shower. This is the set up we currently have on our boat and it works fine, even when we have guests overnighting. I would prefer a raised pilot house, with side doors for easy exit to assist with lines when needed. We want an island master bed, something we don't have now. Other considerations - one or two engines? I am not a fan of an aft cabin where the cockpit is raised. I like the cockpit at water level, with easy access to the swim platform. Well, where do I go from here? What boats should I be researching? I am thinking 43 to 50', and controlling price with age of boat. Price is kind of up in the air, but I would think at least $300k, with room to go up if I fall in love with the perfect boat, a Unicorn.

Thanks again for all the input.

Jeff

Hi Jeff have you looked at the 47' Sabrelines? No Pilothouse and not a walk in ER, but may fit some of your criteria.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?slim=quick&Ntt=47+sabreline&sear chtype=searchbar&Ntk=boatsEN&N=2280+1783&sm=3&luom =126¤cyid=100

Todd

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Dani-lu

I would prefer a raised pilot house, with side doors for easy exit to assist with lines when needed. We want an island master bed, something we don't have now. Other considerations - one or two engines? I am not a fan of an aft cabin where the cockpit is raised. I like the cockpit at water level, with easy access to the swim platform. Well, where do I go from here? What boats should I be researching? I am thinking 43 to 50', and controlling price with age of boat.

I think there are some older Hatteras cockpit motor yachts and yachtfishers that might be worth a look. Somewhere in the 53-58' range. Think some of those had both pilothouses and real cockpits... Maybe some of their LRCs had both, too...

I suspect something like that could make us move up, but I'd also want to search for the slightly more recent years ('89? '90?-ish) when they moved away from 32V systems... and I'd have accept two-stroke DDs as the initial going-in propulsion.

And I'd have to accept many of the systems would like need refreshing... not always a bad thing, since I'd essentially be baselining much of the boat...

I have actually given this some semi-serious thought... but then there also comes a point where if the boat gets too big, it isn't great anymore for just a quick trip around the Bay for lunch and things like that.

-Chris

[bayview]

Dani: for easy engine access avoid V style engines. Inline sixes run smooth and usually provide better hull side access.

[smitty477]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

I think there are some older Hatteras cockpit motor yachts and yachtfishers that might be worth a look. Somewhere in the 53-58' range. Think some of those had both pilothouses and real cockpits... Maybe some of their LRCs had both, too...

I suspect something like that could make us move up, but I'd also want to search for the slightly more recent years ('89? '90?-ish) when they moved away from 32V systems... and I'd have accept two-stroke DDs as the initial going-in propulsion.

And I'd have to accept many of the systems would like need refreshing... not always a bad thing, since I'd essentially be baselining much of the boat...

I have actually given this some semi-serious thought... but then there also comes a point where if the boat gets too big, it isn't great anymore for just a quick trip around the Bay for lunch and things like that.

-Chris

Those are really great boats and we really looked at them as well. For us they were not a good solution due to our desires for draft, air clearances, weight, the 32vlts, and many of the mechanicals which would have necessitated much more dollars and/or time in maintenance. We had cruised with one of these models a few years back and IMHO they represent a great example of this type of boat. The 58' Hatt we traveled with was so large inside that it was more like a small house than any other boat along for that trip.

[Codger2]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

I have actually given this some semi-serious thought... but then there also comes a point where if the boat gets too big, it isn't great anymore for just a quick trip around the Bay for lunch and things like that.

Such was the case for me years ago. I had a 54' sport fisher that I loved but it was a giant PITA when friends just wanted to take a short bay cruise.

[Seevee]

Originally Posted by ksanders

What you just said makes allot of sense, and potential boat buyers should read it carefully!

In any mission profile where a Semi displacement boat will perform safe and comfortably...

Most active cruisers will not recoup in fuel savings the cost differential between an equivelent age, size, etc... semi displacement boat, and a passagemaker style boat.

The price differential between a Searay, Silverton, Meridian/bayliner on the SD side and a Nordhavn, Krogen, Seline on the FD side is all else equal (size, vintage) hundreds of thousands of dollars.

You can buy a hell of a lot of fuel, and probably even retire years earlier if your mission profile makes the SD boat a viable candidate.

I will guarantee that there are things the FD passagemakers can do that the SD boats cannot. There are days that the SD boat will stay in port where the FD boat will venture forth.

But... If one (like the OP) is thinking fuel savings are going to ever overcome the cost difference between these two styles of boats, well... That is just not going to happen.

The only real exceptions to this are older KK 42's and Willards, and Other "trawler era" boats out there. Some of these can be had for very reasonable prices, so they offer single engine FD economy, and reasonable pricing. Many can be had for significantly less purchase price than a similar SD style boat, makeing them a cruisers dream.

Ksanders,

The fuel cost vs purchase price depends......

If the cheaper MY is cruising faster and getting 1 nmpg, which is common vs. the more economical more expensive trawler getting 2 nmpg, one could spend $150K more for the trawler with the economy for a loop trip (6000 mi) and break even. (value of money at 5%).

But if it's a marina condo, going out once a month, fuel is a non issue.

And for a passage maker crossing oceans, fuel could make a HUGE difference.

I'd bet that the majority of us don't travel 6000 mi a year, and probably way less than half of that. So one needs to look at the usage. Also, if money is an issue a single is cheap, but not by huge amounts.

[Seevee]

Originally Posted by Dani-lu

So, where are we? I am leaning towards a semi-displacement, with a good sized ER. I want 2 heads, preferably separate standup showers in each, but I would compromise with only one separate standup shower. This is the set up we currently have on our boat and it works fine, even when we have guests overnighting. I would prefer a raised pilot house, with side doors for easy exit to assist with lines when needed. We want an island master bed, something we don't have now. Other considerations - one or two engines? I am not a fan of an aft cabin where the cockpit is raised. I like the cockpit at water level, with easy access to the swim platform. Well, where do I go from here? What boats should I be researching? I am thinking 43 to 50', and controlling price with age of boat. Price is kind of up in the air, but I would think at least $300k, with room to go up if I fall in love with the perfect boat, a Unicorn.

Thanks again for all the input.

Jeff

Jeff,

We are close to being in the same boat (pun intended). However, you're set on a bigger boat and sounds like you'll do more of the live a board life style that we do, but we are planning on the loop.

I'm with you, don't like the aft cabin and much prefer the open cockpit, where we spend a lot of time.

We ended up with the 400 Mainship, single engine. Not stand up ER, but doable for an old retired fart. But only has a single head. The 430 "might" be an option for you, as well as the Beneteau fast trawler. Both in your price range and both have some speed when needed. However, my 400 with the SD hull will cruise high speed at 13kts and top out at 15.5. But 7 to 8 is the comfort zone.

Another nice thing about the above it they have room for toys, which is a must for us. Bikes, windsurfer, kayak and a dingy.

The Mainship is not an ocean going vessel, but great for the ICW, loop and short week trips. The Beneteau is better for ocean, and I looked at one very seriously. But at $300K it didn't have enough bang to pay almost double the Mainship. And, I need to save money for my other toys.

I'll also take the Mainship out for lunch runs, less than a few miles. It take little more time than my 280 Sundancer and is cheaper to operate. My only issue in launching the Mainship is tide... I live in a really shallow cove, hopefully you don't have that issue.

So, lots of choices out there. Keep us posted.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Seevee

The Mainship is not an ocean going vessel, but great for the ICW, loop and short week trips. The Beneteau is better for ocean, and I looked at one very seriously. But at $300K it didn't have enough bang to pay almost double the Mainship. And, I need to save money for my other toys.

Don't think I'd hesitate to take a 430 or your 400 out in the ocean... at least as far out as I'd want to go, and with attention to impending weather and so forth. Times crossing to the islands, etc., wouldn't seem to difficult...

The original owner of our previous Mainship -- the older 34' model -- routinely went offshore, tuna fishing...

I think all those boats would take more than my crew and I can.

And without criticizing Benetaeu, I've heard from owners and charterers that those are mostly just French-built Sea Rays, Carvers, Silvertons, Cruisers, etc... nice boats, but no better, no worse than any of those other Chevies or Fords. That's not from personal observation, though...

-Chris

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Codger2

Such was the case for me years ago. I had a 54' sport fisher that I loved but it was a giant PITA when friends just wanted to take a short bay cruise.

Who'd you buy the boat for, you or your friends?
If they want a short bay cruise they could go on that charter boat over there >>>>>

[Group9]

I love traveling at 8 knots. The journey is a bigger part of the trip than the destination for us.

And, our boat will go a lot faster than that.

[Bay Pelican]

Originally Posted by Seevee

Ksanders,

The fuel cost vs purchase price depends......

If the cheaper MY is cruising faster and getting 1 nmpg, which is common vs. the more economical more expensive trawler getting 2 nmpg, one could spend $150K more for the trawler with the economy for a loop trip (6000 mi) and break even. (value of money at 5%).

But if it's a marina condo, going out once a month, fuel is a non issue.

And for a passage maker crossing oceans, fuel could make a HUGE difference.

I'd bet that the majority of us don't travel 6000 mi a year, and probably way less than half of that. So one needs to look at the usage. Also, if money is an issue a single is cheap, but not by huge amounts.

On our Krogen 42, 2 nm per gallon would be full out cruise speed. At our normal 6.5 kts we get 4 nmpg.

[Dani-lu]

Originally Posted by Todd R

Hi Jeff have you looked at the 47' Sabrelines? No Pilothouse and not a walk in ER, but may fit some of your criteria.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?slim=quick&Ntt=47+sabreline&sear chtype=searchbar&Ntk=boatsEN&N=2280+1783&sm=3&luom =126¤cyid=100

Todd

Todd,

No I have not considered a Saberline, but now I will add it to my list to research.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Dani-lu]

[QUOTE=smitty477;565564]

Originally Posted by Dani-lu

So, where are we? I am leaning towards a semi-displacement, with a good sized ER. I want 2 heads, preferably separate standup showers in each, but I would compromise with only one separate standup shower. This is the set up we currently have on our boat and it works fine, even when we have guests overnighting. I would prefer a raised pilot house, with side doors for easy exit to assist with lines when needed. We want an island master bed, something we don't have now. Other considerations - one or two engines? I am not a fan of an aft cabin where the cockpit is raised. I like the cockpit at water level, with easy access to the swim platform. Well, where do I go from here? What boats should I be researching? I am thinking 43 to 50', and controlling price with age of boat. Price is kind of up in the air, but I would think at least $300k, with room to go up if I fall in love with the perfect boat, a Unicorn.

Thanks again for all the input.

Hello Jeff,
We sold our 47 Bayliner Pilothouse last year for half that amount of money and I believe it hits everything on your list pretty well. It was our third Bayliner Pilothouse as we owned two 45 version before the last 47 version. Our initial shopping list was similar to yours and it also included: shallow draft. air clearance for the loop, sleeps 6+, good range, good tankage, and a place to carry a reasonable RIB.
Perhaps something like that would fit....

[Dani-lu]

[QUOTE=smitty477;565564]

Originally Posted by Dani-lu

So, where are we? I am leaning towards a semi-displacement, with a good sized ER. I want 2 heads, preferably separate standup showers in each, but I would compromise with only one separate standup shower. This is the set up we currently have on our boat and it works fine, even when we have guests overnighting. I would prefer a raised pilot house, with side doors for easy exit to assist with lines when needed. We want an island master bed, something we don't have now. Other considerations - one or two engines? I am not a fan of an aft cabin where the cockpit is raised. I like the cockpit at water level, with easy access to the swim platform. Well, where do I go from here? What boats should I be researching? I am thinking 43 to 50', and controlling price with age of boat. Price is kind of up in the air, but I would think at least $300k, with room to go up if I fall in love with the perfect boat, a Unicorn.

Thanks again for all the input.

Hello Jeff,
We sold our 47 Bayliner Pilothouse last year for half that amount of money and I believe it hits everything on your list pretty well. It was our third Bayliner Pilothouse as we owned two 45 version before the last 47 version. Our initial shopping list was similar to yours and it also included: shallow draft. air clearance for the loop, sleeps 6+, good range, good tankage, and a place to carry a reasonable RIB.
Perhaps something like that would fit....

Smitty,

No insult intended, but Bayliners have a bad rap in my neck of the woods. But. I have heard some good things about the larger Bayliners like the ones you mention. It is definitely worthwhile researching. The negative I have heard about the express cruisers, is they tend to be a lot lighter than other brand boats of same size. So they tend to get tossed around more in rough seas and a lot more pounding. I have been on a friend's 35' Bayliner (lost in Sandy) and now his 35' Sea Ray and my friend says the Bayliner bow had no weight to it and made docking with a cross wind a nightmare. He also said the Sea Ray was a lot more comfortable in rough water.

I will add the Bayliners you mention to my research list.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Dani-lu]

Originally Posted by Crusty Chief

Jeff,

If its any consolation, if you spend enough time on the boat, you'll always want a "bit more" .
Last year was 171 days of cruising, with almost 40 days before and another 30 days after. Another 50 days during the winter getting ready for this years cruise.
This years trip so far is kinda the same as last year, just a bit farther north.

We also at times would love more speed occasionally. But really enjoy a great fuel burn rate of less than 3 gals an hour including Hurricane heater and generator use.

Take into consideration how much you will actually use the boat for cruising.

Cruising with ASD this year as much as we are, two totally different boats, yet we are enjoying the cruise. They have more living space onboard and they can kick up the Kitty Cats if needed and get somewhere rather quickly. We on the other hand max out at 10-11 knots and the fuel burn for those few precious knots is ridiculous.
Good luck on your hunt, but above all else, use the darn thing and you'll enjoy it even more.

Cheers, John

We do 100 hours a season now, and I am still working full time. We definitely plan to use the heck out of our retirement boat!

[Dani-lu]

Originally Posted by Bay Pelican

On our Krogen 42, 2 nm per gallon would be full out cruise speed. At our normal 6.5 kts we get 4 nmpg.

I have to say I love the look and layout of most of the Krogens. I have even been talking to a gal about going to see a few in Virginia. Just don't know if we can handle the 8kt cruise, all the time. I could see us running 8kts and less on most legs of the ICW or ocean from NY to Florida, but I like knowing I can get up and go if I need to. I guess I am not a sailor, rather a motor boater. But, my wife and I may change our minds. I like the look of a Marlow and Fleming too. I just think my eyes may not be connected to my bank account.

[Art]

Tollycraft 40' 43', 44', 48'.... thru 65' YachtWorld link:


1970 Tollycraft (Power) Boats For Sale

[Dani-lu]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Don't think I'd hesitate to take a 430 or your 400 out in the ocean... at least as far out as I'd want to go, and with attention to impending weather and so forth. Times crossing to the islands, etc., wouldn't seem to difficult...



The original owner of our previous Mainship -- the older 34' model -- routinely went offshore, tuna fishing...



I think all those boats would take more than my crew and I can.



And without criticizing Benetaeu, I've heard from owners and charterers that those are mostly just French-built Sea Rays, Carvers, Silvertons, Cruisers, etc... nice boats, but no better, no worse than any of those other Chevies or Fords. That's not from personal observation, though...



-Chris

I have heard the same of Benetau. I looked at the weight of the 40 something Benetau, and I think it weighed less than my 41 Sea Ray.

[Dani-lu]

Originally Posted by Group9

I love traveling at 8 knots. The journey is a bigger part of the trip than the destination for us.

And, our boat will go a lot faster than that.

I have a feeling I can get used to 8kts. But, I like knowing I can run a bit faster in a strong current or to out run some weather. I guess this reads Semi-displacement.

[smitty477]

[QUOTE=Dani-lu;565746]

Originally Posted by smitty477

Smitty,

No insult intended, but Bayliners have a bad rap in my neck of the woods. But. I have heard some good things about the larger Bayliners like the ones you mention. It is definitely worthwhile researching. The negative I have heard about the express cruisers, is they tend to be a lot lighter than other brand boats of same size. So they tend to get tossed around more in rough seas and a lot more pounding. I have been on a friend's 35' Bayliner (lost in Sandy) and now his 35' Sea Ray and my friend says the Bayliner bow had no weight to it and made docking with a cross wind a nightmare. He also said the Sea Ray was a lot more comfortable in rough water.

I will add the Bayliners you mention to my research list.

Thanks,

Jeff

No problem - we are used to hearing that over the years. We traveled for many years with a paper cruising club that was about 40 boats strong- most of them were Sea Rays. We did a lot of cruising 'loops' of between 100- and 250 miles with these Sea Rays: 31, 33, 37, 38, 40, 45, 46, 48 and a 62 to name some of them. Not sure what you mean by rough seas but none of these boats are really great in really rough seas - the 4788 weighs in at about #35,000 with a half load but its not a great rough water boat by design. The roughest we have been in (not by choice) was about 12" with tight spacing and green water coming up over the bow - the boat did much better than we did. Over the years I did get a chance to work on and fix a bunch of those Sea Rays during our travels.....