50 year old man drowns in front of 14 year old son

[rgano]

It is the captain's responsibility to avoid any conditions necessitating the donning of PFDs.
That said, it is the marine environment we operate in, and I have had a couple of occasions to order us into lifejackets. I preceded that order with my reasoning before conditions worsened to the point that it became obvious we should have already had them on. Thus, no anxiety beyond the concern for the worsening conditions developed.

 

[Simi 60]

I'm going to take this one further...

Agree

 

[psneeld]

Great captaining is knowing when things have turned for the worse....or get it turned around....



Great leadership in getting people to do things they would not normally do under severe circumstances with them just focusing on what needs to be done.


I have succeeded and failed....I just hope every time necessary, I get closer to getting it right all the time.


Also hopefully I never or rarely need to.

 

[Benthic2]

The wearing of PFD's inside an enclosed boat is not required, has never been required, and its requirement has never even been suggested. Worrying about the merits of such a requirement should probably be reserved until someone is proposing that.

Funny side story. I used to work on a cruise ship and one of my coworkers used to don her life jacket when she went to bed when conditions were marginal. While drowning is not a topic to make light of, the thought of this person sleeping with a life jacket on in the bowels of a 782 foot ship is kind of amusing.

 

[rgano]

The wearing of PFD's inside an enclosed boat is not required, has never been required, and its requirement has never even been suggested. Worrying about the merits of such a requirement should probably be reserved until someone is proposing that.

Funny side story. I used to work on a cruise ship and one of my coworkers used to don her life jacket when she went to bed when conditions were marginal. While drowning is not a topic to make light of, the thought of this person sleeping with a life jacket on in the bowels of a 782 foot ship is kind of amusing.

Wearing an inflated or PFD with traditional buoyant material inside or under a cover can be downright hazardous. Even the modern inflatables with the dissolving pill which when dissolved inflates the PFD should not be worn inside.

 

[Medic]

PFDs

On both of the trawlers I've owned the command rule was anytime outside of the pilothouse or salon you wore a PFD. Four inflatable PFDs were kept on hooks at the salon door and two at each of the two pilothouse doors. Additional orange PFDs were kept in compartments with bold decals nearby the salon door and near the starboard pilothouse door. In anticipation of my four granddaughters being aboard (it never happened - thanks COVID) #2 trawler I had a full set of 4 PFDs in a very clearly marked cabinet near the salon door, each a different size for the 4,6,8 and 10 year old, PLUS another full set of 4 PFDs in the 4 sizes in the forward storage compartment alongside the anchor locker. The thought of them not being able to get to one set or the other because of fire made me spend a couple of hundred dollars for two sets. With their limited swimming skills, they could have drowned just having to go into the water in a mooring field surrounded by other boaters whereas swimmers would have been rescued in four or five minutes.

On trawler #1 when anyone was on watch they were commanded to wear a MOB pendant when on duty and they were alone at the helm. Furthermore, they HAD to wear a PFD plus the pendant when they went out onto the Portugese bridge, AND they had to set an alarm timer for 15 minutes -- and that timer would have awakened not only everyone else on board, but much of the Atlantic fleet if it had gone off - it happened once, solely because the person on watch was busy stargazing on the Portugese bridge, and there were three very, very ticked-off people awakened from deep sleep when it did.

The ONLY exception to the above, and I really objected to it but the Admiral pulled rank, was when at least two people were sunbathing on the flybridge. Then the plan was that there would be one person who could sound the alarm should the other person fall overboard. Falling overboard would actually have been a near impossibility on the flybridge.

I've had to try to resuscitate a number of drowned people. And probably at least a dozen or so were kids. That is enough.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

That's the boater's update on "don't wear a seatbelt because it will prohibit you from being ejected from the vehicle in a wreck." It only makes sense if you don't think about it.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

That's the boater's update on "don't wear a seatbelt because it will prohibit you from being ejected from the vehicle in a wreck." It only makes sense if you don't think about it.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought of that comparison.

For a large vessel with enclosed cabins am I’m not suggesting 100% use of PDFs. I don’t think anyone else was either. The only proviso is that someone inside could instantly be called on to be outside in an emergency. Where is the PFD to be donned, if not on your body it should be extremely handy. IMO.

Even in my agency work there was a policy that “passengers” could remove PFD in enclosed cabins. I wore one all the time at the helm, for the reason above.

 

[AlanT]

I'm going to take this one further...

I've seen right here, and in people I physically know where the captain of a fully enclosed trawler, cruiser, motoryacht made his passengers wear a PFD any time the weather got rough, yes while seated inside the boat.

In my opinion that act is absolutely against the very essence of captaining a boat.

A captains job is to keep their passengers safe, yes that is job #1.
In cases like I described the captain is simply causing unnecessary and preventable fear in their passengers.

A good captain will outwardly display a calm confidence in their ability to pilot their boat and get back to port safely.

Ordering the donning of life jackets is contrary to that unless the captain truly thought the boat might go down, and if that was the case he displayed a serious lack of judgement being out to sea in those conditions in the first place.

I have been in some serious seas, as has any body that has been in the open ocean. Never during any of my times at sea did I fear that we would not make it, that the boat would go down.

Ordering the donning of life jackets displays a captains lack of confidence, lack of skill, and or lack of judgement regarding his boats capabilities and the weather. All skills necessary to be a good captain.

I agree, except that my grandkids (7 & 12) are required to wear PFDs except when indoors. If on any deck they have to be PFd'd

 

[rgano]

That's the boater's update on "don't wear a seatbelt because it will prohibit you from being ejected from the vehicle in a wreck." It only makes sense if you don't think about it.

Nope, you have it all wrong, and the car comparison is just too facil lacking in imagination for a real argument. I won't even put a car in gear without a seatbelt on, but a boat is a far different environment where far different considerations come into play.

 

[ksanders]

I agree, except that my grandkids (7 & 12) are required to wear PFDs except when indoors. If on any deck they have to be PFd'd

Yep, little kids are a different story.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Nope, you have it all wrong, and the car comparison is just too facil lacking in imagination for a real argument.

It is not. Being trapped unable to escape inside a space - above decks at least - due to flotation being worn is largely a theoretical risk which though one could find examples, is minuscule compared to the risk of finding oneself involuntarily in the water outside. Just like the number of seatbelt saves compared to entrapments. Just as I have heard for years people finding excuses to not wear both PFDs and seatbelts based on illogical or extremely rare possibilities while ignoring the logical and common ones.

Here’s another one. A subset of my police brethren refusing to wear a seatbelt on patrol because it “will” slow them down in an ambush. Ignoring the hard fact that they are thousands of times - millions probably - more likely to be injured in a crash than attacked in their car. And do they drill at escaping the vehicle interior under fire after they leave basic training? Drill at drawing a weapon while seated?Drill at rapidly deploying their long gun from the driver’s seat? No they do not, unless they’re on SWAT perhaps. But no, they can’t wear that seatbelt!

 

[CarlF]

Not the situation here but all of us responsible for others on the water should know that “Drowning doesn’t look like drowning”

https://www.watersafetymagazine.com/drowning-doesnt-look-like-drowning/

 

[CarlF]

Ordering the donning of life jackets displays a captains lack of confidence, lack of skill, and or lack of judgement regarding his boats capabilities and the weather. All skills necessary to be a good captain.

This is nonsense. A captain who insists on crew wearing a PFD is likely concerned about man overboard not the boat sinking. Who hasn’t had a guest forget their life jacket when going on deck? Or forgotten it themselves?

Of course, in calm coastal daytime conditions most don’t wear life jackets (including me) but it is a calculated risk - I’d never criticize someone for practicing safer seamanship.

 

[captmikem]

I have never understood why anybody who works on boats or around water, recreationally or otherwise, wouldn't bother to learn how to swim. That makes utterly no sense to me. And I wouldn't have thought this prior to fatherhood, but even if I don't care about myself, I need to be able to potentially rescue my kid. It's a minimal almost trivial investment of time for a valuable lifelong skill.

I have circumnavigated twice, and worked commercially on the water most of my life.
I do not swim, I have taken courses and had many people try to teach me to swim. I sink, I can swim maybe 100 ft and I am worn out and sink. When I snorkel I wear a wet suit which gives me flotation.

I do not wear a life vest. Just too cumbersome on deck.

Take a look on youtube, people starting a voyage all decked out in harnesses and PFD's after a few days they shed them.

Common sense, familiarity with your boat and especially the deck is far more important than the illusion of safety. One should be able to make your way fwd quickly and safely with your eyes closed as you often have to do it in the dark.

M

 

[ksanders]

This is nonsense. A captain who insists on crew wearing a PFD is likely concerned about man overboard not the boat sinking. Who hasn’t had a guest forget their life jacket when going on deck? Or forgotten it themselves?

Of course, in calm coastal daytime conditions most don’t wear life jackets (including me) but it is a calculated risk - I’d never criticize someone for practicing safer seamanship.

Nope, a good captain will instruct his passengers to remain seated when possible, and will always tell their passengers not to go outside the enclosed cabin areas during rough weather. Allowing anybody outside during rough weather risks the whole boat wether that person has a PFD or not. Try doing a Man Overboard drill sometime in 20+ knot winds and you will quickly see the risk to all.

again, no need for a PFD in a typical "trawler forum" boat unless it is used to cushion a fall.

 

[KnotYet]

I have circumnavigated twice, and worked commercially on the water most of my life.
I do not swim, I have taken courses and had many people try to teach me to swim. I sink, I can swim maybe 100 ft and I am worn out and sink. When I snorkel I wear a wet suit which gives me flotation.

I do not wear a life vest. Just too cumbersome on deck.

Take a look on youtube, people starting a voyage all decked out in harnesses and PFD's after a few days they shed them.

Common sense, familiarity with your boat and especially the deck is far more important than the illusion of safety. One should be able to make your way fwd quickly and safely with your eyes closed as you often have to do it in the dark.

M

On my (all too short) 2200 mile crossing our crew of 3 was never unharnessed when
on deck. Admittedly this was an open cockpit boat with a higher risk of a MOB.

I will say that our roughest days were the first two before leaving the continental shelf
off the west coast.
If we'd been on a different style boat I would have worn a PFD on deck for that period, too.

 

[Benthic2]

... the illusion of safety....M

staying afloat is not an "illusion of safety" !!!!

You said yourself that you sink.

sinking = death
floating = life

As a sinker, how can you call something that keeps you afloat, and more importantly, your head above water an illusion!?!?!!?

Let's keep in mind the incident that started this thread. A guy lost his balance and fell into the water on a calm day with people around and his son right near him. If he was wearing a PFD his son could have tossed him a rope, or at the very least he would have floated until someone else arrived. We can all come up with all sorts of esoteric and unlikely scenarios where a PFD might or might not be useful....but when a non swimmer falls into the water right next to an anchored boat on a calm day, there can be no dispute that a PFD would have made a difference to this man and his loved ones.

 

[SteveK]

Curious, has anyone tested the PFD they put on?
I know I have not jumped in with one on.

 

[dannc]

...

again, no need for a PFD in a typical "trawler forum" boat unless it is used to cushion a fall.

Certainly, one does not need a PFD when inside a trawler unless one expects things to get real bad, real fast, real soon.

Having said that, once upon a time I was on a trawler in a gale and went out on the stern to take pictures. One really needed one, if not two hands, to hold on to the boat. I had no hands so I could take pictures and it all worked out.

However, I went to the side deck and took some quick photos and quickly got my a...s back inside. I could easily have gotten tossed overboard and without a PFD, by the time the crew figured out I was no longer on the boat, I would have been feeding the crabs that all of the crab pots we were dodging were trying to catch.

Later,
Dan

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Curious, has anyone tested the PFD they put on?
I know I have not jumped in with one on.

I have. It was on Lake Powell where the water was pleasant and flat calm. That part of the experience wasn't realistic given where I usually boat. But the rest was an eye opener. Just as you come to the surface and try to get your bearings, a big yellow blob pops up into your face (this was a fanny pack style). I put it over my head and got is secured, which made actual swimming impossible. Even a dog paddle would roll me on my back. Best I could do was kind of a clumsy back stroke. Of course with clothes on, that meant travelling at a rate of 20 feet per minute. In nice warm water. I was glad that I jumped in when the boat was beached and only had to go 20 feet.

Back to reality and 50 degree water, assuming an accurate toss of a throw line by somebody on board, I might be able to "swim" 20 feet to it. If I were solo and using one of the "motor kill switch fobs," that means I'll have to catch up to the now coasting boat. If I'm lucky and it is only 800 feet away, that's only a 45 minute swim. I'm sure that I've never swam nonstop for 45 minutes, even laps in a heated pool. I hope that little fob contains a tiny outboard.

Cost me more than $30 to re-arm the PFD. Money well spent.

 

[Art]

I keep rope bordered life rings free-hanging on each side of fly bridge and one on the deck in front of salon windows. Each with quick release-tied 50' of 1/4" yellow floating line attached. Have various size and style life vests under passenger seat on bridge and in front bed berth on port side cabinet under the bed. Additionally, one of the prime reasons for choosing our Tollycraft tri cabin sun deck as preferred boat design is because all and every outside area has SS railing surround. I ask each new person aboard how well they know how to swim - with this question: Could you swim 50' out away from boat and swim back with no life jacket on? If the answer is a resounding yes and I believe them I say be careful to not slip overboard. If they say no or I don't buy their yes - I tell them to wear a life jacket when out of the boat's interior or off the bridge.

All in all - you can only be just so careful in life. After all; this is "Pleasure Boating" we're all entailed in. We're all gonna go some how... some way... some day. Just be cautions before reaching that day!!! But... Do have Fun!!

Happy Boat-Use Daze! - Art

 

[Benthic2]

Marco; Different PFD's have different applications. Some give you more flexibility and mobility, some will float an unconscious body face up. If you have to swim in a Type 1, its best to swim on your back.

 

[BandB]

I have circumnavigated twice, and worked commercially on the water most of my life.
I do not swim, I have taken courses and had many people try to teach me to swim. I sink, I can swim maybe 100 ft and I am worn out and sink. When I snorkel I wear a wet suit which gives me flotation.

I do not wear a life vest. Just too cumbersome on deck.

Take a look on youtube, people starting a voyage all decked out in harnesses and PFD's after a few days they shed them.

Common sense, familiarity with your boat and especially the deck is far more important than the illusion of safety. One should be able to make your way fwd quickly and safely with your eyes closed as you often have to do it in the dark.

M

Wifey B: Our college required all students to take a course in drownproofing. You might find one very beneficial. The goal isn't swimming but staying afloat until help can arrive. Even non swimmers had success in it.

 

[psneeld]

Almost no swimming encouraged in water survival training...all about staying calm, and comfortable in the water and staying afloat.

 

[Alisske]

Wifey B: Our college required all students to take a course in drownproofing. You might find one very beneficial. The goal isn't swimming but staying afloat until help can arrive. Even non swimmers had success in it.

Yeah. I remember that training. Sorta floated around like a dead person. Face down with arms and feet dangling. You would just turn your head to breath.

Would work great on a calm day

 

[Art]

Mom had been a professional high diver in her late teens. Heck of a great swimmer too. She put on shows with a group.

So... this is how she taught us [three boys] to swim when we were really young:

1. Put full life jacket on us [the uncomfortable old cork filled orange type]

2. Attached a line to rear of neck area

3. Walked us around and around the boat until we could swim with the jacket on.

4. Soon thereafter had us in shallow location of a saltwater bay and got us swimming without the jacket.

From there on swimming has been my friend!!