50 year old man drowns in front of 14 year old son

[Northern Spy]

Old wives tale about the fly...sure it probably happens but no real proof of how often....

Never on my watch or mission.....

Old sailor tale, I get your drift.

Data.

Source: https://www.redcross.ca/crc/documents/3-3-4_10drwn_english.pdf

 

[psneeld]

Thanks Spy, I should have suspected someone would actually track that statistic....though how many might have just been old guys with both a memory and drinking/balance problem that forgot to zip up before leaving home and fell in for another reason?

And no...well maybe I know someone that fits that description....

Is there actual video proof?

 

[tisado]

Data.

Source: https://www.redcross.ca/crc/documents/3-3-4_10drwn_english.pdf

Seems that standing up in boat and urinating can be combined. Guys...

We have started wearing our inflatables when on deck to handle lines, fenders and when on flybridge when under way.
We are old and even with the man overboard pulley, neither if us is in condition to haul out the other.

 

[Benthic2]

I don't think you can have the same discussioin about PFD's regarding recreational boaters and commercial fishermen. Professionals and amateurs have different standards, backgrounds and priorities. Firemen run into burning buildings, police get into high speed pursuits, big city window washers are on scaffolding hundreds of feet in the air and so on. Regular people should not do any of those things.

Even if this person did inhale water instantly if he was floating he could have been found and CPR performed. People have been revived after very long periods of unresponsiveness. One inhalatioin of water isn't fatal, but being deprived of oxygen for an extended period is. I was invovled in an incident where someone was revived after 45 minutes.

Most tragedies involve a chain of events and all it takes is changing one of the links in the chain to get a different outcome. Just a PFD might not have made the difference, but with a PFD more options open up. A PFD and some training for the kid might have made a difference. If he launched a flair, called a mayday, deployed a throwable, jumped in.....who knows....

Another issue here that I don't think has been raised is that I think too often the person in charge thinks they can handle mosts situations, but when the crisis involves them the remaining people have never even considered all the "what-ifs". Someone besides the captain/owner has to bear the burden of emergency response.

My wife used to hate driving the boat, but every year I would jump overboard (or throw a cushion over if it was cold) so she could practice. She'd turn the boat around, the oldest would get the throwable and the youngest deployed the ladder, then we'd talk about it.

 

[ksanders]

I'm conflicted on this. On the one hand, no doubt PFDs would save lives if worn on small open boats, or in rough weather, or alone on board.

But how many of you wear them regularly on a larger boat, where you're likely to be in the cabin or enclosed flybridge, or where there are railings all around? Note that passengers are not required to wear PFDs on ferries, harbor cruises and such, as long as there's a suitable railing.

Have you ever fallen out of a boat without a PFD? If so, how did you survive?

I agree we all need to promote PFD wear when warranted. I'm a little worried about trying to oversimplify the message to apply to anyone on any boat. It could be MOB drills would save more lives on our size boats than wearing PFDs all the time.

Thanks for saying that!!!

I wear aPFD when on the skiff and some of the time if I go onto the swim platform, it depends on the situation.

I never wear a PFD on my fully enclosed boat with protection from a waist high cockpit or waist high railings.

 

[psneeld]

Not sure anyone who is on the water, professional or amatuer, doesn't have the goal of not drowning.... which is pretty much the only use of a PFD.

They just have different experiences and needs that adjust their risk management decision.

While the risk of drowning on larger boats in protected waters is extremely low, wearing a comfortable, inflatable PFD is only occasionally uncomfortable or interfering with current activity. Hard to argue against wearing one, but most boaters feel very comfortable not wearing one in certain situations.

The real deal is to know when going overboard is even a remote possibility.

 

[Benthic2]

Not sure anyone who is on the water, professional or amatuer, doesn't have the goal of not drowning.... which is pretty much the only use of a PFD.

That's a good point.

I guess I figure a professional has the experience and awareness to make an informed decision and it's not an amateur's place to second guess them. For example,I see lobstermen go out on days that I wouldn't go out, but I don't think they are crazy or stupid....they just have different skills, equipment and priorities than I do so I don't judge.

 

[psneeld]

That's a good point.

I guess I figure a professional has the experience and awareness to make an informed decision and it's not an amateur's place to second guess them. For example,I see lobstermen go out on days that I wouldn't go out, but I don't think they are crazy or stupid....they just have different skills, equipment and priorities than I do so I don't judge.

Belive me, having searched for and rescued a boatload of commercial fishermen, too many are not the pros that a lot of commercial guys are and no more safety conscious or prepared than really good recreational boaters.

Just like all first responders including coasties are at the top of their professions.

Good and bad wherever you go.

 

[stubones99]

Or boat in the Indian River Lagoon. The safety briefing here is "If you fall overboard, stand up."

 

[BDofMSP]

I'm conflicted on this. On the one hand, no doubt PFDs would save lives if worn on small open boats, or in rough weather, or alone on board.

But how many of you wear them regularly on a larger boat, where you're likely to be in the cabin or enclosed flybridge, or where there are railings all around? Note that passengers are not required to wear PFDs on ferries, harbor cruises and such, as long as there's a suitable railing.

Have you ever fallen out of a boat without a PFD? If so, how did you survive?

I agree we all need to promote PFD wear when warranted. I'm a little worried about trying to oversimplify the message to apply to anyone on any boat. It could be MOB drills would save more lives on our size boats than wearing PFDs all the time.

I wore my inflatable PFD for every minute of a 105 mile cruise today. I was in a fully enclosed flybridge with eisenglass, doors, and railings. Sometimes it was hot and a bit uncomfortable, but I wore it. And my wife wore hers, and my guest wore the one I provided him. And I wore it until the engines were off. Which I do every time I leave the dock. Because I don't want to have to remember. Or decide if it's "bad enough". Or not have it when I run out on deck or down to the cockpit in an urgent situation. Plus it's just not that big a deal if you have a high quality one. They're mostly comfortable.

BD

 

[SteveK]

I wore my inflatable PFD for every minute of a 105 mile cruise today. I was in a fully enclosed flybridge with eisenglass, doors, and railings. Sometimes it was hot and a bit uncomfortable, but I wore it. And my wife wore hers, and my guest wore the one I provided him. And I wore it until the engines were off. Which I do every time I leave the dock. Because I don't want to have to remember. Or decide if it's "bad enough". Or not have it when I run out on deck or down to the cockpit in an urgent situation. Plus it's just not that big a deal if you have a high quality one. They're mostly comfortable.

BD

So you are not worried about slipping on the dock and falling in.

 

[BDofMSP]

The dock isn't driving away from me. And it has people around who can help me. And it's stable. I have fallen in at the dock actually, but because of these factors it's a non issue.
BD

 

[rgano]

Long ago in a Navy life I read a NavSafeCen magazine which stated that 70% of Sailors who fell overboard while the ship was moored to a pier drowned. You can let your imagination run wild as to the various causes of the falls, but there was no detail provided as I remember. My wife almost fell in while returning to the boat with a bag of groceries. Our GB 42 was moored stern-in at our semi-private home marina slip. There was a raised platform at the back end of the slip and a step down to the finger pier between slips where she somehow stumbled and went headlong toward the boat's stern. She ended up standing on the swimstep without losing the grocery bag. She could just as easily have knocked herself unconscious and drowned as happened here to the wife of an acquaintance of mine because nobody was there to see it happen. Crap happens all the time, even in the most benign of conditions.

 

[CaptTom]

Just to inject some statistics from the 2020 USCG Boating Safety Statistics Report,

- Where length was known, eight out of every ten boaters who drowned were using vessels less than 21 feet in length.

- Alcohol use is the leading known contributing factor in fatal boating accidents; where the primary cause was known, it was listed as the leading factor in 18% of deaths.

- Where instruction was known, 77% of deaths occurred on boats where the operator did not receive boating safety instruction. Only 12% percent of deaths occurred on vessels where the operator was known to have received a nationally-approved boating safety education certificate.

- Operator inattention, operator inexperience, improper lookout, excessive speed, and machinery failure rank as the top five primary contributing factors in accidents.

- Where data was known, the vessel types with the highest percentage of deaths were open motorboats (50%), kayaks (15%), and pontoons (9%).

I'm not against wearing a PFD. Just that it's not the one-size-fits-all solution. And governments are known for passing feel-good, one-size-fits-all legislation. I don't want to find myself violating the law if I'm found sleeping in my berth without a PFD on!

 

[Benthic2]

Capt, I believe that's called "cherry picking the data" or "selective reporting". You left out:

Where data was known, 86% of people who drowned(75% of all fatalities) were not wearing a life jacket.

Without a control, statistics like these are meaningless. Let's just look at your first data point. ( 8/10 drowning victims were on a boat less than 21 feet )

If 80% boats on the water are less than 21 feet, we would expect this result and can conclude it is not significant. If 50% of boats on the water are <21' this is probably very significant. If 95% of boats are <21' there could be a negative correlation and small boats might be safer than larger boats. Without knowing the control group, this data tells us nothing.

Two really important points when it comes to statistics:
1. Correlation is not causation
2. You always have to ask "compared to what"

 

[bligh]

I would like to add in our northern waters a life jacket style PFD is for insurance purposes for body recovery to be able to certify death. Too gruesome?

The water temp is cold and you need to exit within 15 minutes.
Wearing a floater coat, cruiser suit, survival suit is too bulky and hot.
IMO, wearing a life jacket is a false sense of security.

I had a friend who was solo sailing in the San Juan Islands . He was knocked off his boat by his mainsail boom. He inflated his jeans and remained afloat until rescued. He survived in that cold water for an estimated 4-5 hours. He was hospitalized with hypothermia, but recovered

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Everyone has their risk management plan in their heads.

A new boaters plan might be nothing more than put a jacket on when sinking. An experienced boater may have a couple different scenarios when they need to put a jacket on.

My favorite was when I was at an abandon ship drill on the icebreaker USCGC Glacier in Antarctica. I had swung by the helo and survival gear pile and dragged at least 100 pounds of gear to my station. I already had my survival suit on. Next to me was a first class cook, smoking a cigarette with only his short sleeve white shirt on, no jacket and his white cooks hat. I asked him why he didn't even have a life jacket on compared to all I drug along....his repliy with a nonchalant look was.... "all that stuff Lieutenant is just going to prolong your agony".

So think about your situation, but no, I don't subscribe to the underway demands wearing it all the time.

“No plan survives contact with the enemy.”

 

[SteveK]

I had a friend who was solo sailing in the San Juan Islands . He was knocked off his boat by his mainsail boom. He inflated his jeans and remained afloat until rescued. He survived in that cold water for an estimated 4-5 hours. He was hospitalized with hypothermia, but recovered

I like happy endings. Yes there are many such examples. Many do not.
This link is one of many that say

If you grew up in the Pacific Northwest, or anywhere else with cold waters, you often learn about hypothermia. What you may not know is that cold-water shock and swim failure are risks that come before hypothermia. If you survive a fall into cold water long enough to get hypothermia — you're lucky. Many drowning victims die within minutes of going overboard due to cold-water shock.

Then there is this link from Coast Guard

Plan to get out of water and not to beat the odds.

 

[ksanders]

I am sitting in my fully enclosed pilothouse in the open ocean right now.

The seas are about 5' beam to forward port side.

nobody has PFD's on as we are all inside. Unless this boat turns turtle all the sudden which is not going to happen there is ZERO chance of getting in the water.

If we have an emergency and have to go on the foredeck right now I'
ll don a PFD, but that is a rarity as the only thing up there is the anchor which is tied down.

Wearing a PFD in my situation would do nothing zero, nada, zip.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I think that the seatbelt analogy fits most of the PFD situation. Many of us can remember when President Reagan (famous for his opposition to federal regulation) said that he would make some type of federal regulation on crash safety if the states did not adopt a universal seatbelt requirement. And many can remember the arguments used in opposition. Most were so silly that people now can't believe that they were ever made.

1) "Seatbelts (like PFDs) give a false sense of security." I know that when first driving with a seatbelt on I would take short naps. Not.

2) "Seatbelts (like PFDs) are uncomfortable." This had some validity in the 1970s, although my 1973 Volvo had a comfortable retractible three-point seatbelt design that U.S. vehicles then followed. The Volvo also had a constant buzzer and light if you didn't put it on. But that was 50 years ago. I haven't heard the complaint about seatbelts being uncomfortable in decades. The same is true with PFD designs. It is no longer a moldy canvas kaypok-stuffed brassiere. I even forget that my inflatable is on and often wear it home. I think they are so comfortable that even spoiled teenage girls wouldn't complain, although I do my best to avoid them (spoiled girls, not PFDs).

3) "Seatbelts (like PFDs) make me look stupid." Most of us probably get that comment even without a seatbelt. And would you look less stupid with windshield glass mashed into your face? As for PFDs, doesn't a drowned man with his PFD still in the hanging locker look stupid? Or at least stupider than the victim wearing a PFD.

Our rule onboard is that if there isn't a barrier between you and the briney deep you need to be wearing a PFD. I usually forget mine is on, so I end up wearing it at the helm a lot. It would be fine with me if, like my old Volvo, a buzzer went off if I went on deck without it. Like the Volvo, the buzzer would only activate if the engine was running.* That could allow me to go on the foredeck at anchor. I would probably have enough Pavlovian conditioning to make me put on a PFD out of habit (despite the hurtful comments from teenage girls on the next boat about how I look stupid.)

* Probably save more lives than the wristband gadget that shuts the motor off in a MOB situation.

 

[ksanders]

I think that the seatbelt analogy fits most of the PFD situation. Many of us can remember when President Reagan (famous for his opposition to federal regulation) said that he would make some type of federal regulation on crash safety if the states did not adopt a universal seatbelt requirement. And many can remember the arguments used in opposition. Most were so silly that people now can't believe that they were ever made.

1) "Seatbelts (like PFDs) give a false sense of security." I know that when first driving with a seatbelt on I would take short naps. Not.

2) "Seatbelts (like PFDs) are uncomfortable." This had some validity in the 1970s, although my 1973 Volvo had a comfortable retractible three-point seatbelt design that U.S. vehicles then followed. The Volvo also had a constant buzzer and light if you didn't put it on. But that was 50 years ago. I haven't heard the complaint about seatbelts being uncomfortable in decades. The same is true with PFD designs. It is no longer a moldy canvas kaypok-stuffed brassiere. I even forget that my inflatable is on and often wear it home. I think they are so comfortable that even spoiled teenage girls wouldn't complain, although I do my best to avoid them (spoiled girls, not PFDs).

3) "Seatbelts (like PFDs) make me look stupid." Most of us probably get that comment even without a seatbelt. And would you look less stupid with windshield glass mashed into your face? As for PFDs, doesn't a drowned man with his PFD still in the hanging locker look stupid? Or at least stupider than the victim wearing a PFD.

Our rule onboard is that if there isn't a barrier between you and the briney deep you need to be wearing a PFD. I usually forget mine is on, so I end up wearing it at the helm a lot. It would be fine with me if, like my old Volvo, a buzzer went off if I went on deck without it. Like the Volvo, the buzzer would only activate if the engine was running.* That could allow me to go on the foredeck at anchor. I would probably have enough Pavlovian conditioning to make me put on a PFD out of habit (despite the hurtful comments from teenage girls on the next boat about how I look stupid.)

* Probably save more lives than the wristband gadget that shuts the motor off in a MOB situation.

See in bold above... That is reasonable.

Wearing a PFD while sitting inside any enclosed boat is no more reasonable than wearing one while sitting in the living room of a oceanfront condo for fear you might fall off the balcony into the swimming pool below.

 

[psneeld]

“No plan survives contact with the enemy.”

I guess I should always use the term "operational risk management" (my specialty/training) which really isn't a plan...its the constantly evolving process of lowering ricks to assist in success of a mission.


It was developed knowing that plans don't survive long in reality...it's planning, having options available and changing things as time progresses.

 

[dannc]

A few years ago on a nearby lake, a grandfather and grandson went fishing. The water was cold. They pulled the boat up to a bridge and the grandson fell into the water trying to tie up to the bridge piling. The grandfather jumped in the water and drowned. He was not wearing a PFD and I assume cold water gasp reflex got him. A guy fishing on the bank went into the water and rescued the grandson.

Every spring there is a bunch of drownings in the local lakes and ponds. My guess is that they are caused by cold water gasp reflex. The air temperature can be high but the water temperature is still cold. We have had too many drownings this spring and it has been really bad this summer. Most of these are swimming accidents though and not boating related.

I wonder how many kayak related drownings are on white water rivers.

Later,
Dan

 

[Simi 60]

From our sailing days we lost a water activated strobe on a float at night punching into 30+ knots delivering a boat for a Sydney to Hobart race.
We lost sight of that in about 30 seconds, a real eye opener to many on board
Since then I have always drummed into everybody that if they go over the side they are dead.
If you need to go forward slide on your bum
And always, at least one hand for the boat.
And, if conditions are up we wore harnesses and clipped on
Saying that, we did have 2 MOB incidents over the years while cruising but both times recovered crew very quickly


We used to regularly do MOB drills using 80% filled 20 litre water containers which has them bobbing low in the water.
Hats were always retrieved as well

 

[Alaskaflyer]

My wife asked me one time if I were to get a tattoo what it would be. I showed her the clip in Master and Commander where the "hold fast" tattoo as shown above was featured. I love it. (It didn't go over well.)

I see seatbelts and PFD's on the same risk/frequency quadrant. I've not really ever been saved by either, and I've done some crazy dangerous stuff in boats and cars, but sorry, I snort at complaints of discomfort. *Snort*

I'm not going to wear a gumby suit every time the weather gets up, but today's PFD costs you nothing to wear them, really. And I'm not talking about money.

 

[CaptTom]

Capt, I believe that's called "cherry picking the data" or "selective reporting". You left out:

Where data was known, 86% of people who drowned(75% of all fatalities) were not wearing a life jacket.

Oddly enough, the vast majority who drowned were also not wearing a fedora hat.

Ergo, we should all wear fedoras.

Yes, I anticipated this response. The fact is, the vast majority don't wear life jackets. So jumping from correlation to causation isn't really justified.

The other facts I quoted also don't prove anything, by themselves, except that there are far more variables involved to justify making everyone wear a PFD all the time, on every boat.

...nobody has PFD's on as we are all inside. Unless this boat turns turtle all the sudden...

Good example. If the boat capsized at that moment, and everyone inside were wearing a PFD, imagine how difficult it would be to get out to safety wearing something bulky which wants to pin you to the sole (which is now overhead.)

Again, I'm a strong advocate of wearing PFDs when appropriate. I'm just a bit concerned that some government will pass feel-good legislation requiring them in situations where they're not helpful, or could even be dangerous.

My point is: be careful what you ask for. That's all.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Yes and seat belts might prevent you from escaping a car fire. Or maybe a vehicle snake infestation.

 

[ksanders]

Yes and seat belts might prevent you from escaping a car fire. Or maybe a vehicle snake infestation.

Equating seatbelts with PFD's for a trawler is pretty unfair and unrealistic.

Remember this forum is dedicated to Trawlers, which are a whole lot different than open skiffs. The boats people discuss here have actual cabins, and kitchens, and bathrooms etc... We might own a open skiff but that is a tender for our main boats, or a recreational toy.

I am a part time live aboard who is sitting in my living room having breakfast.
I've seen ZERO real life risk mitigation that wearing a PFD on a trawler will provide.

The only thing I've seen are folks that want to take the term "pfd's save lives" which is true and expand that meaning to go beyond it's original intention which was to advocate for PFD use when in open boats like skiffs, kayaks, jet skis, canoes, and the like.

Someone PLEASE if you are going to advocate for 100% wearing of PFD's show how one has any chance of saving my life unless it is to cushion my fall going down the stairs to check the laundry.

 

[HTurner]

This thread seems to have deviated a bit. The fellow who drowned did not know how to swim. He has a boat time share, he takes his son out. He should have been wearing a PFD. He also should have taken the time to have learned how to swim, at some point, if he was going to spend any time on the water, not only for his safety but for the safety of whoever was going to go out with him.

 

[ksanders]

I'm going to take this one further...

I've seen right here, and in people I physically know where the captain of a fully enclosed trawler, cruiser, motoryacht made his passengers wear a PFD any time the weather got rough, yes while seated inside the boat.

In my opinion that act is absolutely against the very essence of captaining a boat.

A captains job is to keep their passengers safe, yes that is job #1.
In cases like I described the captain is simply causing unnecessary and preventable fear in their passengers.

A good captain will outwardly display a calm confidence in their ability to pilot their boat and get back to port safely.

Ordering the donning of life jackets is contrary to that unless the captain truly thought the boat might go down, and if that was the case he displayed a serious lack of judgement being out to sea in those conditions in the first place.

I have been in some serious seas, as has any body that has been in the open ocean. Never during any of my times at sea did I fear that we would not make it, that the boat would go down.

Ordering the donning of life jackets displays a captains lack of confidence, lack of skill, and or lack of judgement regarding his boats capabilities and the weather. All skills necessary to be a good captain.