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Old 11-10-2017, 02:18 PM   #81
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I don't think it is so much a function of voltage, if at all, but that the phases are not 180 degrees, I think you should say Zero here but 120.
After all there is 120 on each leg which is the first thing looked for. that is not the rule of connection Perhaps one of the professionals can clarify that.
The rule that enables connection is that you must have "something over 200V between both HOT 120V legs". I don't believe that there is a vector voltmeter inside these boxes

Also, if I should hand you two wires, there is no way you could tell me if the wires are 180 deg out of phase or 120 degrees out of phase, since phase measurements are impossible with a 2 wire system. All you can tell me is that there is a sinusoid waveform on there with such and such an amplitude. On the other hand, if I hand you 3 wires out of one of these dock recepts, you can now develop the relationship, in time, between the 3 wires, and with that, tell me phasing info.
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Old 11-10-2017, 03:19 PM   #82
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This string makes my eyes bleed. The poor guy is worried about bad power hookups between the north and Florida. I did have several "first class marinas" come up short with power substantially below 120 volts. I check first and if unhappy with power quality I advise the operator that I will be running a generator intermittently. They hang their head, but reluctantly agree. One villain was a "mega" marina in South Carolina.
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Old 11-10-2017, 04:40 PM   #83
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Yes both Hubbell and Marinco do or did require 210V to energize both relays. With 208V only one side of the boat's 240V breaker panel receives power. Don't know if they have changed that now that 208V power is becoming more common on the docks. This has been a big problem on the docks where I summer. Every other slip has twin 30 amp receptacles and the smart Y adapters don't work on the 208V.

Our Marinco Y says 208V (minimum) will energize the thing.

But most of the few times we've needed to use it, it just worked, so we haven't fooled around much with voltage measurements, so can't confirm.

OTOH, when we first bought this boat... our (then) marina's electrical system wouldn't work with the Smart Y. I believe it turned out all their twin 30A supplies on the same pedestals weren't different phases... so it probably wasn't a voltage issue, but rather a phase issue.

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Old 11-10-2017, 05:20 PM   #84
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After all there is 120 on each leg which is the first thing looked for. that is not the rule of connection Perhaps one of the professionals can clarify that.
The rule that enables connection is that you must have "something over 200V between both HOT 120V legs". I don't believe that there is a vector voltmeter inside these bo
Thanks Dave, but: Well, is there a volt meter in there or what?
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Old 11-10-2017, 05:32 PM   #85
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Thanks Dave, but: Well, is there a volt meter in there or what?
If someone would send me their smart Y, I'd be happy to break it open and inspect it.

But, as a circuit designer, I can tell you that it is not difficult to turn on a relay at 200, something volts and not turn it on at 150 Volts. You don't have to actually measure the voltage with precision. Maybe that's the best way to leave it.
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:16 AM   #86
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The problem is most cruisers have one or two 120V circuits , and few (in USA) use 240 for anything.

So the question becomes how do you get two 120V circuits with a marina that has cheeped out on the wiring?
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Old 11-11-2017, 11:12 AM   #87
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The problem is most cruisers have one or two 120V circuits , and few (in USA) use 240 for anything.

So the question becomes how do you get two 120V circuits with a marina that has cheeped out on the wiring?
Is that the question? My marina is 208, and I get two 120v legs just fine. The problem I have is that I can't get 240, and although my ACs and clothes washer dryers, etc. "require" 240 volts (but run fine on 208), I do have one piece of equipment (high-capacity ice maker) that won't run on 208.
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Old 11-11-2017, 01:38 PM   #88
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The problem I have is that I can't get 240, and although my ACs and clothes washer dryers, etc. "require" 240 volts (but run fine on 208), I do have one piece of equipment (high-capacity ice maker) that won't run on 208.
The answer here is a step up transformer from 120v to 240v for only your ice maker.

My whole boat is 120v but I need 100a. The exception is my dryer. I have installed a step up transformer for the dryer. I have never had an issue with 208v marina’s, I am also able to function off of 50a 120v connectors if necessary.
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Old 11-11-2017, 02:54 PM   #89
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The answer here is a step up transformer from 120v to 240v for only your ice maker.

My whole boat is 120v but I need 100a. The exception is my dryer. I have installed a step up transformer for the dryer. I have never had an issue with 208v marina’s, I am also able to function off of 50a 120v connectors if necessary.
Based on input above (that stepping up 208 to 240 with a dock-mounted transformer would not drop my 120v), I have been considering, as you suggest, a step up transformer for the ice maker. But I was thinking of taking the 208 that feeds it now up to 240. Your thought, of stepping up 120 to 240 did not occur to me. Doing that creates a couple disadvantages: the wiring to the ice maker would have to be reworked, and with all the current coming from one leg, I risk overloading that leg, depending on the demand. So, is there an advantage to stepping up from 120, rather than from 208?

The other problem I have is that my genset producing 240, and most of the time that I am using the ice maker, I am powering it with the genset. So, I would need some fancy switching, and I would have to remember to flip the switches before I turn on the genset. But, frankly, my biggest problem is not knowing exactly which transformer to purchase. Any thoughts/suggestions as to any of the foregoing would be appreciated.
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Old 11-11-2017, 03:38 PM   #90
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My. What is wattage of icemaker? U need an auto-tap autotransformer. I’ll bet the other 240v motors would like the boost too. Shame the marina is so messed up.
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Old 11-11-2017, 04:14 PM   #91
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If you have isolation transformers on your boat, you should see if they are tapable. Quite a bit of discussion on this at The Hatteras Owners Forum if you search the archives. The OEM transformers on the Hattes allowed you to put a switchable tap in place and you could boost voltage 10% when switched. A lot of owners did this on a DIY basis, putting the switch on the panel with the voltmeter. Just have to remember to turn it off when you leave for the next dock, and to keep an eye on voltage in case it is a matter of being erratic due to loads or permanently low.
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Old 11-11-2017, 04:17 PM   #92
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I would go the direction of a 208/240 step up transformer. You would need an automatic voltage sensing switch to bypass the transformer when you are on the generator or at a 240v dock. Easy and simple except for the cost of the transformer.

Diver Dave probably has the right idea. I have not really researched the idea so I can’t say weather to go with just a transformer for the ice machine or the whole boat.
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Old 11-11-2017, 04:55 PM   #93
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You dont want to do the entire boat. Only the “real” 240v loads. If you did the entire boat, the 120v loads get now 132v nominal. Its messy, but you want to divorce only the 240v loads and make it an option to boost only those 15%. And i would want automatic.
As you switch from gen to shore it requires yet another step if its manual.
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Old 11-11-2017, 05:03 PM   #94
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More bad news. If these 240v appliances also need 120v for controls/lights it gets very messy.
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:56 PM   #95
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More bad news. If these 240v appliances also need 120v for controls/lights it gets very messy.
Why Dave, the appliance is only going to see 240v and will step down to 120v internally if needed, or 12v if that’s needed.

Based on diver dave’s Concerns it appears the simplest solution is to just step up the ice machine. Stepping up the entire 240v side of the boat is going to require some rewiring of the panel. It can be done easily enough but will take a good chunk of time and more wire.

If stepping up the whole boat, each hot leg will be split right after the main breaker. One split to the 120v panel, the second split to the step up transformer. Same for the other hot leg. The 240v breakers will have their feed line removed from each side of the 120v panel and rerouted to the transformer. Some were in their will be a voltage sensing switch that can bypass the step up transformer if the transformer doesn’t have it built in.
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:45 PM   #96
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Why Dave, the appliance is only going to see 240v and will step down to 120v internally if needed, or 12v if that’s needed.

Based on diver dave’s Concerns it appears the simplest solution is to just step up the ice machine. Stepping up the entire 240v side of the boat is going to require some rewiring of the panel. It can be done easily enough but will take a good chunk of time and more wire.

If stepping up the whole boat, each hot leg will be split right after the main breaker. One split to the 120v panel, the second split to the step up transformer. Same for the other hot leg. The 240v breakers will have their feed line removed from each side of the 120v panel and rerouted to the transformer. Some were in their will be a voltage sensing switch that can bypass the step up transformer if the transformer doesn’t have it built in.
As you say for a straight 240V item. If that item has a neutral run to it, and if it also requires 120V, the story changes significantly. Why, because when you increase the hot leg on each side of 208 to 230, you also increase the leg to neutral voltage from 120 to 132V. If the icemaker, for instance, doesn't use 120V, then no issue. Understand, though, that most household 240V users also need 120V to operate. Water heater being an exception.
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Old 11-11-2017, 08:04 PM   #97
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Yep, your right, I was watching football and I brain farted. So if the ice maker uses 120v internally then best option would be to take a 120v and step up to 240.
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