ben2go
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They usually steal the entire boat, strip it down at a dock, then tow the remains out, and set it adrift after a final wipe down.
10-12 knot cruise trawler 26-32'?
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They usually steal the entire boat, strip it down at a dock, then tow the remains out, and set it adrift after a final wipe down.
OldDan1943
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They can do the same thing to an inboard boat.
ben2go
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True but it takes a whole lot longer. Some of those outfits can strip an OB boat in about 15 minutes.
Crap! We hi jacked the thread. Sorry bout that.
ssobol
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The 90hp O/B on my boat weighs ~360#. Certainly don't want to mess with anyone that can carry it away.
Another big advantage with an O/B is that there is nothing on or directly associated with it that can sink your boat if it fails.
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Nomad Willy
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ssobol wrote:
"Another big advantage with an O/B is that there is nothing on or directly associated with it that can sink your boat if it fails."
I read that as "stink" your boat.
"Another big advantage with an O/B is that there is nothing on or directly associated with it that can sink your boat if it fails."
I read that as "stink" your boat.
OldDan1943
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Oh I would not bet on that. Some folks think, if 2 is good, 5 will be even better and rip the transom off the boat.
rsn48
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Of course now there are diesel outboards. I've decided I'm not a diesel guy, if I had a Nordhaven and crossed oceans I'd definitely be a diesel guy. I love outboards until you have to add a dinghy to boats 32 feet and under, then swim platform I/O all the way.
Thought I'd copy and paste an older article talking about the new Merc engines used for I/O boats and what has changed ( a lot). Much of the criticism has gone. For example, my old Merc V8 vented through two vent holes in the transom. Those holes are now going to be used as drains for my new scuppers. So the new motor exhausts through the leg so there goes the stinky and noisy critique. Read the article, you will see many changes to make the engines suitable and solely designed for a marine environment, even salt water:
"The Latest Technology In Sterndrives [all the engines discussed in the article now exist]
By Michael Vatalaro
For decades, gas inboards were big, simple, marinized automotive blocks. But now the technology is at a crossroads of sorts, and it's anything but simple.
A new generation of sterndrives are quieter, stronger, and more fuel efficient.
The inboards on my last boat were based on a V-8 design from 40 years ago, popular, I was told, in taxicab fleets. Robust to be sure, but they were also noisy, smelly, and reliant on the vagaries of the four-barrel carburetors that sat atop each block like carbon-smudged crowns. It may be a cliché, but one of the first things you notice while being around modern inboards is, well, they start. As in the first time you turn the key, just like your car. And that's no accident, considering there are very few differences between the engine powering today's boats and the one in your light truck.
Our marine inboards have always shared a basic design with automotive engines. But until recently, the biggest inboard manufacturers, Mercury Marine and Volvo Penta, relied on blocks from General Motors that were a generation or two behind the times. That's all changed now. In a major departure from the status quo, Mercury announced in June 2014 that it would produce a block of its own design for the MerCruiser engines. Volvo went in the other direction, and it began basing its designs on newer-generation GM blocks. These two different approaches to the same problem — how to improve the boating experience for those of us with gas inboards — can be boiled down to opposing beliefs.
"Six years ago, GM notified us it was discontinuing manufacturing the blocks that we'd used as the basis of our engines for the past 20 years," says Marcia Kull, vice president of sales for Volvo Penta North America. "At that time, we needed to make a decision. We asked ourselves, are engines more like a basic commodity, or are they an important component that influences the boating experience?" Volvo Penta believes that all the engineering work and technology built into those GM power plants pay dividends to boaters in measurable ways, so the company moved forward using the very latest GM Gen 5 blocks.
Mercury, on the other hand, surveyed its options, then chose a different direction.
"Most of what's happening in automotive is introducing a level of tech that's very good for an automotive application but delivers little benefit to marine purposes," says Facundo Onni, director for product management at Mercury Marine. "Given the marine-duty cycles that require higher rpm and high torque at all times, the automotive fuel-efficiency focus adds complexity and cost without much upside." Mercury believes starting with a blank slate — designing a new marine power plant from scratch — provides advantages that can't be achieved with the GM block. As consumers, we now have a real choice between inboards, and here's why that's a good thing.
Same Power, Fewer Cylinders
Both builders have rolled out new V-6 engines with horsepower ranging from 200 to 250, the sweet spot for sterndrive power formerly occupied by small-block V-8s. These power-dense engines are truly remarkable in that they're putting out nearly identical power to their bigger, older cousins while using less fuel and creating fewer emissions — and they weigh less. In the case of Mercury's 4.5-liter V-6, with its newly designed block, the 130-pound weight savings over the old 5.0-liter V-8 comes at a cost of only 10 horsepower, noticeable only when the throttle is wide open; the V-6's impressive fuel savings run around 15 percent.
Both Volvo and Mercury have made servicing these engines easier. On the Volvo, the company not only located all the service points on the front of the block, where you typically have the best access, but also designed these parts to be common to all the inboards in its lineup, V-6s and V-8s alike. This means your mechanic will be very familiar with servicing your motor, no matter which model it is. For the do-it-yourselfers, easy access means you're less likely to put off a maintenance task simply because it's inconvenient.
On the performance side, the variable valve timing and wideband oxygen sensors in the Volvo engines allow it to start and run well in all conditions while using a variety of fuel qualities. A higher rpm range (6,000 is the max for the V-6 models) is more like that of an outboard, and this gives boat builders greater flexibility in propping their boats for best performance.
The new Mercury block has zero GM parts.
"We like the new-generation automotive blocks," says Kull. "They're just stronger, more powerful engines. Boats are getting the same performance out of smaller, lower horsepower blocks. The boater isn’t paying more for larger engines up front, or paying to feed those big engines all the time," she continues. "There is a replacement for displacement."
Starting from a blank slate, Mercury focused on ease of maintenance and making the engine smooth and quiet. For example, a lightweight flywheel makes for smoother shifting. Mercury also moved the throttle body, and all the noise associated with it, to the back of the block. The throttle body usually faces forward on an automotive engine, away from the driver of a car. But on a boat, that points the throttle body right into the cockpit. Mercury says the change reduces engine noise by 3 decibels. In addition, the plastic cowling material on top of the engine cuts down on high-frequency noise, making the engine less harsh to the ear. Even the oil pan has noise-deadening properties. Mercury even decided that the fuel-pump noise was irritating, so it changed that as well. All of these refinements add up to a quieter, more pleasant engine to be around.
Mercury also makes owning one of its engines easier with one-touch drainage of the (raw) water portion of the cooling system. Turn a knob, and all the water drains from the block, making winterizing a snap. "We call that the season extender," says Onni.
New Perks
There's a lot to like about both of these new blocks. Digital engine control means a boat powered by either brand won't bleed speed while turning or require input from the helm to keep a steady speed.
It's easier to breathe near both of these new designs, too. While all new inboards are required to have catalytic converters to transform hydrocarbons (unburned fuel) and carbon monoxide in the exhaust to less harmful water vapor and carbon dioxide, it's hard to overstate what a big change this is from just five years ago. For example, Volvo says that its new engine at idle emits 95 percent less carbon monoxide than previous designs.
Bigger, Better
For those of us brought up on engines with carbs and distributor caps, lifting the engine hatch and seeing the smooth plastic cover of one of these modern blocks may be a bit of a surprise. But as soon as you turn the key and push the throttles forward, the improved performance over their forebears should begin to wow you."
Thought I'd copy and paste an older article talking about the new Merc engines used for I/O boats and what has changed ( a lot). Much of the criticism has gone. For example, my old Merc V8 vented through two vent holes in the transom. Those holes are now going to be used as drains for my new scuppers. So the new motor exhausts through the leg so there goes the stinky and noisy critique. Read the article, you will see many changes to make the engines suitable and solely designed for a marine environment, even salt water:
"The Latest Technology In Sterndrives [all the engines discussed in the article now exist]
By Michael Vatalaro
For decades, gas inboards were big, simple, marinized automotive blocks. But now the technology is at a crossroads of sorts, and it's anything but simple.
A new generation of sterndrives are quieter, stronger, and more fuel efficient.
The inboards on my last boat were based on a V-8 design from 40 years ago, popular, I was told, in taxicab fleets. Robust to be sure, but they were also noisy, smelly, and reliant on the vagaries of the four-barrel carburetors that sat atop each block like carbon-smudged crowns. It may be a cliché, but one of the first things you notice while being around modern inboards is, well, they start. As in the first time you turn the key, just like your car. And that's no accident, considering there are very few differences between the engine powering today's boats and the one in your light truck.
Our marine inboards have always shared a basic design with automotive engines. But until recently, the biggest inboard manufacturers, Mercury Marine and Volvo Penta, relied on blocks from General Motors that were a generation or two behind the times. That's all changed now. In a major departure from the status quo, Mercury announced in June 2014 that it would produce a block of its own design for the MerCruiser engines. Volvo went in the other direction, and it began basing its designs on newer-generation GM blocks. These two different approaches to the same problem — how to improve the boating experience for those of us with gas inboards — can be boiled down to opposing beliefs.
"Six years ago, GM notified us it was discontinuing manufacturing the blocks that we'd used as the basis of our engines for the past 20 years," says Marcia Kull, vice president of sales for Volvo Penta North America. "At that time, we needed to make a decision. We asked ourselves, are engines more like a basic commodity, or are they an important component that influences the boating experience?" Volvo Penta believes that all the engineering work and technology built into those GM power plants pay dividends to boaters in measurable ways, so the company moved forward using the very latest GM Gen 5 blocks.
Mercury, on the other hand, surveyed its options, then chose a different direction.
"Most of what's happening in automotive is introducing a level of tech that's very good for an automotive application but delivers little benefit to marine purposes," says Facundo Onni, director for product management at Mercury Marine. "Given the marine-duty cycles that require higher rpm and high torque at all times, the automotive fuel-efficiency focus adds complexity and cost without much upside." Mercury believes starting with a blank slate — designing a new marine power plant from scratch — provides advantages that can't be achieved with the GM block. As consumers, we now have a real choice between inboards, and here's why that's a good thing.
Same Power, Fewer Cylinders
Both builders have rolled out new V-6 engines with horsepower ranging from 200 to 250, the sweet spot for sterndrive power formerly occupied by small-block V-8s. These power-dense engines are truly remarkable in that they're putting out nearly identical power to their bigger, older cousins while using less fuel and creating fewer emissions — and they weigh less. In the case of Mercury's 4.5-liter V-6, with its newly designed block, the 130-pound weight savings over the old 5.0-liter V-8 comes at a cost of only 10 horsepower, noticeable only when the throttle is wide open; the V-6's impressive fuel savings run around 15 percent.
Both Volvo and Mercury have made servicing these engines easier. On the Volvo, the company not only located all the service points on the front of the block, where you typically have the best access, but also designed these parts to be common to all the inboards in its lineup, V-6s and V-8s alike. This means your mechanic will be very familiar with servicing your motor, no matter which model it is. For the do-it-yourselfers, easy access means you're less likely to put off a maintenance task simply because it's inconvenient.
On the performance side, the variable valve timing and wideband oxygen sensors in the Volvo engines allow it to start and run well in all conditions while using a variety of fuel qualities. A higher rpm range (6,000 is the max for the V-6 models) is more like that of an outboard, and this gives boat builders greater flexibility in propping their boats for best performance.
The new Mercury block has zero GM parts.
"We like the new-generation automotive blocks," says Kull. "They're just stronger, more powerful engines. Boats are getting the same performance out of smaller, lower horsepower blocks. The boater isn’t paying more for larger engines up front, or paying to feed those big engines all the time," she continues. "There is a replacement for displacement."
Starting from a blank slate, Mercury focused on ease of maintenance and making the engine smooth and quiet. For example, a lightweight flywheel makes for smoother shifting. Mercury also moved the throttle body, and all the noise associated with it, to the back of the block. The throttle body usually faces forward on an automotive engine, away from the driver of a car. But on a boat, that points the throttle body right into the cockpit. Mercury says the change reduces engine noise by 3 decibels. In addition, the plastic cowling material on top of the engine cuts down on high-frequency noise, making the engine less harsh to the ear. Even the oil pan has noise-deadening properties. Mercury even decided that the fuel-pump noise was irritating, so it changed that as well. All of these refinements add up to a quieter, more pleasant engine to be around.
Mercury also makes owning one of its engines easier with one-touch drainage of the (raw) water portion of the cooling system. Turn a knob, and all the water drains from the block, making winterizing a snap. "We call that the season extender," says Onni.
New Perks
There's a lot to like about both of these new blocks. Digital engine control means a boat powered by either brand won't bleed speed while turning or require input from the helm to keep a steady speed.
It's easier to breathe near both of these new designs, too. While all new inboards are required to have catalytic converters to transform hydrocarbons (unburned fuel) and carbon monoxide in the exhaust to less harmful water vapor and carbon dioxide, it's hard to overstate what a big change this is from just five years ago. For example, Volvo says that its new engine at idle emits 95 percent less carbon monoxide than previous designs.
Bigger, Better
For those of us brought up on engines with carbs and distributor caps, lifting the engine hatch and seeing the smooth plastic cover of one of these modern blocks may be a bit of a surprise. But as soon as you turn the key and push the throttles forward, the improved performance over their forebears should begin to wow you."
Benthic2
Guru
This might check a lot of the boxes for the OP
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999/carver-voyager-3495975/?refSource=enhanced listing
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999/carver-voyager-3495975/?refSource=enhanced listing
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. B. VERY interesting boat and it may well do for the OP. Anyone care to comment on the pros/cons of V-drives and what range might be expected at cruising speed (20kts) with only 188 gallons of fuel?
Mr. B. VERY interesting boat and it may well do for the OP. Anyone care to comment on the pros/cons of V-drives and what range might be expected at cruising speed (20kts) with only 188 gallons of fuel?
Many of the 30' - 40' Sea Ray Sundancers (an express cruiser) have V drives. It opens up a lot of interior space and gives the boats a mid-cabin. Another nice thing is that it moves the engine noise to the rear of the boat. A Tiara express cruiser of the same size would have straight shafts and no mid cabin and the engines would be in the helm area.
Folks with Sea Ray Sundancers report good reliability on the drives.
My wild guess is that on plane the Carver is probably looking at somewhere around 0.75 mpg. Might need a fuel bladder for extended cruising, but then this becomes a problem as access to the engine is in the cockpit!
Jim
Folks with Sea Ray Sundancers report good reliability on the drives.
My wild guess is that on plane the Carver is probably looking at somewhere around 0.75 mpg. Might need a fuel bladder for extended cruising, but then this becomes a problem as access to the engine is in the cockpit!
Jim
Last edited:
ben2go
Guru
Depending on how it's set up, the engine(s) may be directly over the stuffing box(es) and can't be easliy inspected or adjusted. If it has remote mounted V drives, the engines may sit in a location away from the stuffing box(es) and run the V drives by shaft. I'm not a fan of them usually.
Bryant
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10-12 knot cruising.
Depending on the waters you cruise, maybe. Discounting sailboats, the number of 22-23 powerboats that typically carry a dinghy, for obvious reasons, is extremely small and generally, not required. That’s why you buy a boat in this size range, so that you can take advantage of its capabilities due to its size. The vast majority of boaters in this size range don’t need a dinghy.
Having said that, the C-Dory 22 and 25, Ranger Tug and Cutwater 23, Venture 23, the Rossborough 24 all have hard tops and will cruise between 10 and 20 kts easily and they are trailerable with outboards. The Camano 30 will also do 15-17 kts.
Than you for straightening me out on what a trawler is and isn’t, however as I own a GB 36, I already knew. I also know that these smaller boats are marketed as “pocket trawlers” or “trailerable trawlers” so in answering the initial question, I lumped them all together, which is the information that was originally asked for, not a lesson on marine architecture.
Depending on the waters you cruise, maybe. Discounting sailboats, the number of 22-23 powerboats that typically carry a dinghy, for obvious reasons, is extremely small and generally, not required. That’s why you buy a boat in this size range, so that you can take advantage of its capabilities due to its size. The vast majority of boaters in this size range don’t need a dinghy.
Having said that, the C-Dory 22 and 25, Ranger Tug and Cutwater 23, Venture 23, the Rossborough 24 all have hard tops and will cruise between 10 and 20 kts easily and they are trailerable with outboards. The Camano 30 will also do 15-17 kts.
Than you for straightening me out on what a trawler is and isn’t, however as I own a GB 36, I already knew. I also know that these smaller boats are marketed as “pocket trawlers” or “trailerable trawlers” so in answering the initial question, I lumped them all together, which is the information that was originally asked for, not a lesson on marine architecture.
Nomad Willy
Guru
All well said.
Thanks Bryant!
I love smaller boats and if I was to gravitate (perhaps more likely than not) it would be to smaller not larger boats. If I could find a good one .. a light 22’ OB cruiser would please me indeed.
Thanks Bryant!
I love smaller boats and if I was to gravitate (perhaps more likely than not) it would be to smaller not larger boats. If I could find a good one .. a light 22’ OB cruiser would please me indeed.
Last edited:
Bryant
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10-12 knots
Full disclosure: I’ve never owned a V drive but a couple of observations. One, when you add couplings and angles into a drive train, you lose horsepower and energy at each junction ( generally speaking). Seems like a V drive would be rather inefficient. Even more than that, you are introducing one more “gizmo” into the equation which you don’t otherwise have to deal with in a conventional drive. If it can fail, it probably will at some point. Finally, there was a nice Mainship with a V drive for sale at a local broker for a dirt cheap price. It lay their for years. It seemed no one wanted the V drive. I don’t know if that was based on knowledge and experience or just mistrust of the system but they couldn’t sell it, so I must not be the only one with apprehensions.
Full disclosure: I’ve never owned a V drive but a couple of observations. One, when you add couplings and angles into a drive train, you lose horsepower and energy at each junction ( generally speaking). Seems like a V drive would be rather inefficient. Even more than that, you are introducing one more “gizmo” into the equation which you don’t otherwise have to deal with in a conventional drive. If it can fail, it probably will at some point. Finally, there was a nice Mainship with a V drive for sale at a local broker for a dirt cheap price. It lay their for years. It seemed no one wanted the V drive. I don’t know if that was based on knowledge and experience or just mistrust of the system but they couldn’t sell it, so I must not be the only one with apprehensions.
Nomad Willy
Guru
But your own vessel could be the victim of a V drive.
Since (if your boat is a twin ((and just as an example)) let’s say the engines are a bit fwd of ideal. CG wise. But if you employed a V drive how could you deal w an engine at the aft end of your main salon? That would wreck the whole floor plan .. I think.
But the added slight complexity like a V drive gear may be a small price to pay if you could deal w the engines further aft.
Just a theory if the GB (whops I thought she was a 42) was w a too far fwd CG. Just think’in.
Since (if your boat is a twin ((and just as an example)) let’s say the engines are a bit fwd of ideal. CG wise. But if you employed a V drive how could you deal w an engine at the aft end of your main salon? That would wreck the whole floor plan .. I think.
But the added slight complexity like a V drive gear may be a small price to pay if you could deal w the engines further aft.
Just a theory if the GB (whops I thought she was a 42) was w a too far fwd CG. Just think’in.
Last edited:
ssobol
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I was only referring to proper installations. Somebody way overloading the transom by hanging extra engines in excess of the boat manufacturers design does not apply here and probably get what they deserve.
O C Diver
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Do you know that there are V drive transmissions, as opposed to a transmission and an additional transmission box? The prop shaft coupling on a V drive transmission points back under the engine instead of away from the engine.
Ted
ben2go
Guru
Just for those that don't know. There are three different common V drive setups.
1) "Direct couple" where the V drive and transmission are one unit and mounted to the engine like a regular transmission. The driveshaft runs back under the engine to the prop. This is the style I have worked on.
2) "Close couple" where the engine has a short driveshaft that runs to the V drive and then a second driveshaft goes back to the prop. I've seen these in pics.
3) "Remote mount" is where the engine and transmission are together like a standard set up but is mounted rearward facing aft. A driveshaft runs forward to a remote mount V drive, usually 1:1. Then a second driveshaft runs aft under the driveline to the prop. I've seen these used in racing jet boats.
1) "Direct couple" where the V drive and transmission are one unit and mounted to the engine like a regular transmission. The driveshaft runs back under the engine to the prop. This is the style I have worked on.
2) "Close couple" where the engine has a short driveshaft that runs to the V drive and then a second driveshaft goes back to the prop. I've seen these in pics.
3) "Remote mount" is where the engine and transmission are together like a standard set up but is mounted rearward facing aft. A driveshaft runs forward to a remote mount V drive, usually 1:1. Then a second driveshaft runs aft under the driveline to the prop. I've seen these used in racing jet boats.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. b. Thanks. I assume that the most common set-up is the direct couple type, given that this is the most compact arrangement. I am also assuming that it is the most difficult for stuffing box service. Perhaps this is one of the reasons for their bad rep'.
Mr. b. Thanks. I assume that the most common set-up is the direct couple type, given that this is the most compact arrangement. I am also assuming that it is the most difficult for stuffing box service. Perhaps this is one of the reasons for their bad rep'.
ben2go
Guru
Most common set up, yes, this has been what my research has turned up. Yes, it's a real pain in the A. When I was a kid, I was the one that got stuffed under the engine to snug up the stuffing box/packing nuts. I was a tiny person back then. Yes again. They do have a not so stellar rep due to people skipping the stuffing box maintenance and neglecting the driveshaft. The remote mount set up seems to be more common with custom builds and racers.
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