*Blue Water* Bahama cruising?

[Bud]

I blew in one section of my front windsheild in the Gulf of Maine crossing Jeffries ledge in about 30-35knots of NW wind. I was doing 9.5 knots. The wave in that kind of wind was probably moving at about 10 knots. If I was to slow down to 4.75 knots i would have reduced the force that wave hit me by roughly 25%. I probably would have not blown in the windsheild. I know that in a sea like the NW wind gives you, in the Gulf of Maine the waves are steep but closer together, so by speeding up the vessel one can increase the force of the vessel to overcome the waves and have a smoother ride. The catch is if you meet up with that rogue wave that has more force than the vessel then the vessel gives way. Everybody knows when a vessel starts pounding thats the threshold when the forces of the waves are beginning to overcome the force of the vessel. (Force is measured in Newtons)

Bud

 

[Hippocampus]

Think we’re talking at cross purposes. One group talking about a coastal environment. The other offshore.
In the coastal environment yes extreme speed or better yet inappropriate speed can be dangerous. However in an offshore environment even an extra knot or two can save your life. One group is talking in terms of semi planing or planning hulls. The other full displacement.
I’ll state again there are NO full keeled sailboats in current series production. I spent much of my life blue water sailing and hanging out with that crowd. Virtually ALL people actually doing this activity prefer to NOT do it on a full keeled boat.
On Salty Dawg Rallies there’s a very rare Island Packet. They are extremely slow and not weatherly. They need to leave early and still arrive last. Island Packet is out of business. No one would buy them any longer. On the ARC Caribbean 1500 there are NO full keeled boats.NONE. Fastnet, Hobart and many other events have proven in survival conditions full keel boats do poorly.
Powerboat design has different concerns then sail. In this context a minimal full keel continues to make sense for full displacement vessels. However unlike full keeled sail where AVS (angle of vanishing stability) was dependent on ballast ratio and resultant righting arm for power there’s much more dependence on form stability.
It may be helpful if folks spent some time reading about the history , elements of naval architecture and physics underlying hydrodynamics. Also current design trends. Then return to this conversation.

 

[PPandE]

Think we’re talking at cross purposes. One group talking about a coastal environment. The other offshore....
It may be helpful if folks spent some time reading about the history , elements of naval architecture and physics underlying hydrodynamics. Also current design trends. Then return to this conversation.

Wait. I've been away for a few days and I think I might have missed something.

I thought we were talking about the Bahamian environment and if it is considered "blue water" cruising. How is this related to boat design?

Is the water blue? Most of it in various shades with some shallow stuff looking almost white.

Does it meet the criteria for "blue water" cruising. Gotta define "blue water cruising" to know for sure. Doesn't meet my personal definition but everyone gets to have an opinion until Webster or one of his ilk steps up to the plate with a definition. I find cruising the Bahamas much less of a challenge than the coastal and inland waters of the eastern US. And I don't do either in bad weather. (defined as not needing the sippy cup lid on my coffee)

 

[Hippocampus]

Agreed.

If it’s blue head on through.
If it’s green then take heed.
If it’s brown shut her down.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Early today I chatted with my boat broker. For months now we been trying to find a Nordhavn or other suitable bluewater trawler. We’ve been on Nordhavns, Katy krogans, had discussions with Sea Horse and Diesel Duck manufacturers. We’ve looked at two one offs as well. Of the Nordhavns only one of 8 boats we’ve seen or did FaceTime video calls was set up as a blue water boat. We went to a KK open house in Annapolis. Of the 6 kady krogans one . Of the Diesel Ducks 2 out 4 the 38 wasn’t nor the 41 home brew. The one in Turkey and the one in California were.
There are blue water trawlers. They are a combination of design, execution of build, and outfitting.
Go to any blue water cruising organization or discuss with any naval architect and you’ll see I’m not a lonely voice in the woods.
Hell just read Beebe’s book. That’s blue water.

Was your experience above a result of seeing choices made in equipment and options affecting redundancy and range? Or was it something else?

 

[Hippocampus]

Exactly right. Difference was in outfitting. The only time I didn’t spend much time, effort and funds redoing a boat was the only time I had the opportunity to spec a boat from scratch because it was a new build. Much of it is redundancy and range but a lot of other things as well. Communication systems, nature of storage and lockers so they’re secure when it’s bumpy, recording barometer, safety equipment, hand holds, lee clothes , work station etc. it’s an endless list and you can’t buy safety but pretty much obvious when you board a boat what’s its intended use was. You hear you can expect to spend 15-25% of purchase price refitting a sound coastal boat for extended blue water cruising . Been lucky and haven’t had to spend that much but it’s not an insignificant undertaking.

 

[menzies]

Exactly right. Difference was in outfitting. The only time I didn’t spend much time, effort and funds redoing a boat was the only time I had the opportunity to spec a boat from scratch because it was a new build. Much of it is redundancy and range but a lot of other things as well. Communication systems, nature of storage and lockers so they’re secure when it’s bumpy, recording barometer, safety equipment, hand holds, lee clothes , work station etc. it’s an endless list and you can’t buy safety but pretty much obvious when you board a boat what’s its intended use was. You hear you can expect to spend 15-25% of purchase price refitting a sound coastal boat for extended blue water cruising . Been lucky and haven’t had to spend that much but it’s not an insignificant undertaking.

What boat did you buy and how much have you spent so far, percentage-wise?

 

[Hippocampus]

Have yet to buy. Put in an offer on one but couldn’t come to an agreement. It’s a niche market even in sail. There’s no reason to put up with the comprises required unless that’s truly your program. Semi displacement makes much more sense for coastal or near shore travel. Weather is much less of an issue when you have shorter transit times so more weather windows are open to you. Shorter distances are travelled faster taking shorter times. You don’t need the tankage (water/fuel) so you’re moving around less weight. You have the opportunity for more useful living space. Open spaces aren’t the same risk. Down flooding risk is much lower so expensive but simple things like glass, hatches etc. can be spec’d differently. Blue water boats tend to have greater water and airdraft taking skinny water off the menu. At all levels semi displacement makes much more sense for the way people use their boats. Except in setting of blue water cruising. At present there are very few suitable power boats for sale in our budget range. Also the turnover time is longer. People either check a bucket list box or find they don’t like the lifestyle or you wait for them to age out. A good fraction of those boats are presold even before they’re listed if they are listed at all. We’ve been looking at east coast,Caribbean and extreme SoCal boats only. May have to expend our search but truly don’t want to given what’s going on in the world.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Interesting, I recently was researching a passagemaker with noticeable interior handrails and ceiling grab handles throughout each cabin and passageway, and by seeing them I suddenly realized how many “long range” yaddityyaddy boats I’ve also looked at which had few if any outside of stairways. Things that were so innocuous (but needed) on all the work-oriented boats I’ve served on that I forgot to even look for them. Ditto locker and cabinet fasteners.

 

[Adagio43]

To my way of thanking Bluewater cruising or passage making means you have left the continental shelf behind. Incidentally, the water out there is more purple than blue.

 

[jeffnick]

A coastal cruiser on their first trip across the Gulf Stream to the Bahamas will see Blue Water. When they return to the coast, they will have been a blue water cruiser to anyone not having a similar experience.

A 'blue water boat' is defined by the ratio of adventure to safety.

 

[BrianG]

This thread lead me to a 90 minute Youtube documentary on the Queen's Birthday Storm. OMG...
https://youtu.be/Aa7KxGtUlAA

 

[Prospective]

This thread lead me to a 90 minute Youtube documentary on the Queen's Birthday Storm. OMG...
https://youtu.be/Aa7KxGtUlAA

That was a great documentary. I was particularly entertained by the couple where the wife is clairvoyant.

 

[Willin]

I love the Berries. Great Habour Cay. I used to take my 25 foot diesel Sea Vee out from Miami and once delivered an 18 foot flats boat. Started to tow it but ran the 90 miles in it instead. Calm conditions and I remember the flying fish were above my head.

I like to freedive there and I’m sure there are still many bull sharks on the outside. Can’t think of a better place to be stuck for three days.

I’m in Seattle now in the rain. Very different and I’m looking forward to a cruise this Winter to the San Juans.

 

[Willin]

I think you nailed it. From all the posts I read in this interesting thread, I’d suggest we are speaking of a passagemaker. With blue water sort of a description that is trawler-related due to range and budget. The USS United States liner was a very fast safe passagemaker for example—forty knots. Compare to any monster cruise ship these days. Both go out in blue (aka deep) water but only one is safe in all conditions.

 

[Hippocampus]

Know of several recreational power vessels that have done fine in force 8 and 9. With current technologies and techniques things have changed. There’s been an explosion of recreational trawler and expedition yachts going around the world and doing transoceanic passages. Nordhavn has a registry of which not all or even most participate. However they’ve recorded 7 million nautical miles to date. Of interest is the remarkable number of miles the 40 and 43 have done. Although a 40 continues to have the record for the fastest circumnavigation in a recreational trawler in the registry it, the 43 and 46 seem over represented for miles and remarkable transits.