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Old 06-08-2022, 11:09 AM   #1
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Flying Coney - 82ft sailing ship project based on historic trawler

Hi folks,

I'm Daniel and I bought myself a huge (in any meaning) project. Together with my girlfriend Barbara we want to restore her back to the sailing ship she once was.



The boat was built 1950 in The Netherlands. Maybe some parts like the frames are even older since they look like they are from a wooden ship. Anyway 1950 she was built or rebuilt with very thick riveted steel plates. from the 8-10mm steel on most places 5-8mm are left and thats good.

After her life as fishing vessel she was converted to a tall ship. However she lost her mast and was converted to a motersailing houseboat used as a floating artist workshop for some years.

Our dream is to convert her back into a sailing ship. But that's the vision. The dream... We hope that we will be finished in about 5 years.

Now we are up to more, lets say, realistic projects. We want to tackle the rust issue inside and out. Strip the interior. Recoat everything. Put insulation in. New electric, plumbing and heating systems. Overhaul the engine, the generator.... And the list goes on and on and on...

From the technical standpoint everything looks ok but not good. We are a bit nervous because we haven't hauled out the boat pre purchase and we are planning a lift out soon. So keep your fingers crossed.

Before you point your finger at us saying how stupid we are, there is a recent hull thickness report and the ship was reasonable priced wich left some room for repairs. If you still think we are crazy, that's ok also but then you are probably no boat owner.

We have a single DAF 1160 DKTA with 320hp. The engine is turbocharged and aftercooled and therefore relatively small for a ship that size. The good thing is relatively low engine hours but a bit cosmetic wouldn't do any harm.

At the moment we are pretty much in the planning and "look what I found" stage of the project. Water is dripping in at the stuffing box and also somewhere up front. Probably a leaking rivet.

I hope to find some good advice about all the upcoming projects in this forum. Where else should I find advice for boats slightly on the bigger side?

The plan is to keep you updated through this tread and I will ask a lot of questions here, that's for sure. But if you want to see more, for example how we scooped out 1500 liters of oily bilge water, I upload regular videos on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SailingFlyingConey

If you have any questions feel free to ask!
Regards Daniel
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Old 06-08-2022, 11:19 AM   #2
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Wow. Good luck! What’s your vision for the future with this boat, beyond just fixing her up?
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Old 06-08-2022, 11:27 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Oeanda View Post
Wow. Good luck! Whatís your vision for the future with this boat, beyond just fixing her up?
The reason we want to address the rust issue first is to give us more time for the other projects.

The vision is to convert her back into a tops'l schooner. So two masts and square topsails on the schooner mast. For that we need the rig, we have to lower the quarter deck down to bulwark hight and we want to lower the wheelhouse as well.

We are not completely sure how we want to use the boat once she is finished. But the layout will probably be something like that:
a big captains cabin aft
a big saloon with gally
two more luxurious guest cabins
and as many bunks in the foreship as possible

So a mix out of a private yacht and a traditional sailing ship. I can see myself sailing with trainees and youth groups. Not so much with charter guests.
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Old 06-08-2022, 11:43 AM   #4
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Welcome aboard and congrats on your new boat. What a project!!! Have a lot of fun. From our experience I would recommend making a list of everything that you need to do or think you need to do. Then schedule your work like an emergency room, do what needs to be done to stop the bleeding. I know that the fun projects that make things look nice are what people usually want to do first, but I like to fix the important things to stop any further deterioration. Anyway good luck and keep the updates and photos coming.
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Old 06-08-2022, 11:51 AM   #5
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Well I commend you on your bravery, and look forward to the video of the interior.
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Old 06-08-2022, 12:06 PM   #6
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Greetings,
Welcome aboard. Yep. You're nuts. Enjoy yourselves.
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Old 06-08-2022, 12:59 PM   #7
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Then schedule your work like an emergency room, do what needs to be done to stop the bleeding.
I think that's a good starting point for a discussion about our first big project.

Well, we have a rust problem in an unknown dimension. At least from the inside we want to treat the hull mostly DIY. We want to start in the foreship because we do not use that compartment of the hull for anything but storage.

The first step ist streicht forward, we have to get rid of the interior. Noting of value in there. So that step can be done quick and dirty.

The next step will be to scratch the sticky black stuff off that's currently protecting the hull. It's some sort of bitumen. So I guess heating it up with a heat gun and scratching it off with a knife is the best solution? (Attached pic)


And then we reach the area were there are a lot of solutions but it's very tricky to get detailed informations about what's best for the DIY user.


1. Sand blasting or hydro blasting. I'm willing to invest in equipment. But I'm not sure if it would be cheaper to hire someone to do the sandblasting. I tried to do a little bit research on laser blasting but it seams that I'm about 5 years to early for affordable options.

2. Zincspraying either flamespry or arc spray. Is it necessary or overkill?

3. What is the standard coating paint to give me a long service life.

4. From all what I read foam spray isolation seam to be the gold standard. But neither Brupeg, SV Seeker, Janice Bannon and so on are going down this route. Is it a good option in a riveted hull. What happens if a rivet gets leaky under the foam?
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Old 06-08-2022, 03:49 PM   #8
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I see where Brupeg is not going to treat the area of the enclosed bow he is currently plating over on the assumptiom there will ne no oxgen there once it is used up by the oxidation. I have not seen him discuss how or if he plans to insulate below the waterline for his arctic exploration vessel.
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Old 06-08-2022, 05:41 PM   #9
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Daniel, just some feedback, one guy's opinion:

- I think she looks great as a trawler. I'd chop off the fake plant-on bowsprit and trailboards, keep the foremast short as a cargo mast, and utilize it as a steadying sail.
- Love the look of riveted hulls. The steel may be a black-iron and not A39 common steel, so make sure to employ the correct persons for repairs. Welding may not be straight forward.
- 5mm of steel isn't healthy in the hull. Great plan to completely strip the interior and obtain complete access to the hull for a refurb.
- Speaking refurb... keep her traditional and old-school. I can picture 2 or 3 bulkhead drip diesel heaters keeping her toasty and warm, the old-school way, while pushing through first year ice.
- Considering your location, you may wish to scrap the main engine and have Abato provide you a nice new Weichai. It's the heart of your vessel and the #1 safety item.
- Engine power sounds about right, but you'll need to obtain more specifics to size correctly.

If you're moored in Amsterdam then I might come visit your incredible project this Christmas! Good luck.
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Old 06-09-2022, 06:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olsalt View Post
After her life as fishing vessel she was converted to a tall ship. However she lost her mast and was converted to a motersailing houseboat used as a floating artist workshop for some years.

Our dream is to convert her back into a sailing ship. But that's the vision. The dream... We hope that we will be finished in about 5 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olsalt View Post
The vision is to convert her back into a tops'l schooner. So two masts and square topsails on the schooner mast. For that we need the rig, we have to lower the quarter deck down to bulwark hight and we want to lower the wheelhouse as well.

We are not completely sure how we want to use the boat once she is finished. But the layout will probably be something like that:
a big captains cabin aft
a big saloon with gally
two more luxurious guest cabins
and as many bunks in the foreship as possible

Welcome. Nice ship!

So she started as a fishing vessel. Sail, power, or both?

Was the current pilothouse and quarterdeck original to that?

Then converted to a tall ship. Rig?

Or was the pilothouse and quarterdeck added after losing the "tall ship" mast?

She looks so nice to me as is, and the pilothouse/quarterdeck would seem to me to be so very useful...

That loosing any of the the pilothouse/quarterdeck spaces would be a sort of step backwards. Even if a viable sailing rig is fashioned to take advantage of doing that.

Your boat, your dream, of course! But isn't there a viable sailing rig that wouldn't cause you to have to lose the aft spaces? Even if not a tops'l schooner rig? Even if "only" a motorsailer?

-Chris
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Old 06-09-2022, 10:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olsalt View Post
...

The next step will be to scratch the sticky black stuff off that's currently protecting the hull. It's some sort of bitumen. So I guess heating it up with a heat gun and scratching it off with a knife is the best solution? (Attached pic)
...

1. Sand blasting or hydro blasting. I'm willing to invest in equipment. But I'm not sure if it would be cheaper to hire someone to do the sandblasting. I tried to do a little bit research on laser blasting but it seams that I'm about 5 years to early for affordable options.

2. Zincspraying either flamespry or arc spray. Is it necessary or overkill?

3. What is the standard coating paint to give me a long service life.

4. From all what I read foam spray isolation seam to be the gold standard. But neither Brupeg, SV Seeker, Janice Bannon and so on are going down this route. Is it a good option in a riveted hull. What happens if a rivet gets leaky under the foam?
The black stuff sounds like tar/bitumen that was used for rust proofing. If it is still preventing rust and does not smell, you might want to just leave it alone.

If you sandblast, the metal needs to go to white or near white condition for the epoxy paints requirements I have read. Sandblasting is hard work and might be cheaper to hire out.

Epoxy paints are used for commonly today but flame spraying is used as well. My question is a zinc flame spray AND them epoxy painted over kill? Getting the interior of the hull coated correctly is very important on a steel boat.

My two cents is that the best insulation for a boat is the Armacell like materials, such as, https://www.armacell.us/products/apa...parmaflexfssa/. The Dashews used this type of materials on the FPBs. I saw one home build that use this type of insulation, maybe 1/2 or 1 inch thick to completely cover the hull interior and then filled in the rest of the space with rock wool. The rock wool is easy to remove if needed, the Armacell type insulation took a bit more work to remove but likely easier than spray foam.

Later,
Dan
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Old 06-09-2022, 10:47 AM   #12
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Olsalt, I had an older steel hull though not as old as yours. It had been
internally coated with the tarry substance you describe. Being a primitive
adhesive it was in various states of preservation depending on the location throughout the hull.

You may find corrosion underneath the coating in spots as you remove it. To
protect the remaining metal that stuff needs to be completely removed with a
combination of scraping and solvent stripping to bare metal before blasting, IMO.

I have no experience with riveted ferrous hulls but I doubt loose rivets are of
any greater concern than the remaining thickness of the plates. Epoxy paint
would do as much to prevent further corrosion as a zinc process, also IMO.

One more thought: you don't mention if the boat is currently hauled.
I think that a hull that old should be 100% waterproof before I would
start stripping and coating the interior. That means doing all the
needed exterior repairs first so that the interior work will be rust-free.
Good luck!
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Old 06-09-2022, 03:41 PM   #13
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Today we pumped out about 600 liters bilge water that accumulated over the last 5 weeks or so. I think it's time for the haul out...

Thanks for all the answers. Please have in mind that I spend the last few hours in the dinghy moving that bilge water to the pump out station. After driving 200 miles to the vet. (Dolce is recovering fine but looks like Frankensteins bunny) So my answers might make sense or not. Not sure.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
Daniel, just some feedback, one guy's opinion:

- I think she looks great as a trawler. I'd chop off the fake plant-on bowsprit and trailboards, keep the foremast short as a cargo mast, and utilize it as a steadying sail.
- Love the look of riveted hulls. The steel may be a black-iron and not A39 common steel, so make sure to employ the correct persons for repairs. Welding may not be straight forward.
- 5mm of steel isn't healthy in the hull. Great plan to completely strip the interior and obtain complete access to the hull for a refurb.
If you're moored in Amsterdam then I might come visit your incredible project this Christmas! Good luck.
Actually the bow sprit is original from her sailing ship days. Probably not the most beautiful one. What's missing is the wooden jib-boom. The former owner shortened the bow sprit about one meter so that she is under 25 meters LOA. As a sailing ship she was probably a bit over 100ft in length.

1950 is just some years before they started to weld the hulls here in the Netherlands and the good thing is, there are plenty of yards having experience with old steel boats. We are moored next to three ships older than mine. One even built 1887.

The minimum required steel thickness is 3,4mm. Most places are 6-8mm. One spot down to 4,5. But every bit of steel converted to iron oxide is lost for ever so we know how important it is to start working.
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Old 06-09-2022, 04:47 PM   #14
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She's a big unit and a big project, best of luck with her.
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Old 06-09-2022, 04:48 PM   #15
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You sure have yourself a project. It will be great to follow along, see what you find, and see how you restore everything.
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Old 06-09-2022, 04:51 PM   #16
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I see where Brupeg........
Man, that's been a long time on the hard
Fees must be crippling

Going on that, my advice to OP is get the hull sound, get tools and gear onboard and get her back in to continue work at anchor.
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Old 06-09-2022, 06:16 PM   #17
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Man, that's been a long time on the hard
Fees must be crippling

Going on that, my advice to OP is get the hull sound, get tools and gear onboard and get her back in to continue work at anchor.
I can write something about the wheelhouse tomorrow.

Currently we are not on the hard. We are in a marina near Amsterdam. Marina fees are quite affordable over here. We pay about 250Ä a month. But time on the hard isn't. Usually it's way cheaper to get the stuff done by the yard. Quick, expensive but usually good work. I'm not the only one with a big steel boat in holland.

Thans for all the good wishes!
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Old 06-09-2022, 06:39 PM   #18
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Zinc coating stops all steel corrosion. And even when there's a break in the coating, the rusting is minimal and gives you time to repair. It works the best underneath spray foam insulation. I've seen many repair and remodel jobs on commercial vessels. When the foam was removed, it was like brand new underneath.

I built and worked on steel boats and ships. Spraying on zinc is better than epoxy paint. But it takes good surface prep like sand blasting. Silica sand makes the best surface, but you have to wear a respirator if you want to use your lungs later. It may be illegal in some countries.
On new boats, I sprayed everything inside and out except for tank insides. There are good inside tank coatings and diesel reacts with zinc. It's ok with water tanks. I had two ex-navy tugs that were zinc coated about 20 years before I bought them. Absolutely no rust except where chain and lines rubbed thru. I kept a Metco spray gun for repairs. The gun is easy to use. Often one shows up on ebay.
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Old 06-10-2022, 06:49 PM   #19
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If I was going to take on that project I would try and figure out the Laser blasting. I know it is expensive, but if it works 1/10 as good as they make it look in YouTube videos it would save you many thousand hours, and likely be well worth the money. If it works good, it might be a very profitable side business for you too, doing work on other peoples metal boats. I had the hull sides, and bottom of my previous 40' Aluminum trawler media blasted about 6 years ago. I think it cost around $12,000 US dollars. After watching that process being done, I would not want to DIY the interior blasting. The exterior wouldn't be too bad if you could find a place that will let you do it yourself, (You can't where I live), but the interior would be too horribly unpleasant for me.
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Old 06-10-2022, 09:01 PM   #20
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I enjoyed watching the videos, and look forward to following along with the project. I think the two of you are well suited to the task and have a much better chance of success than most people.
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