Designing & Building Hammerhead

[Salty Pelican]

Salty Pelican to London! And an issue with a pump ...

My brother in law flew in from Hungary. We are exploring London and enjoying it. Great weather, interesting architecture, surprising ales.

Black water discharge pump broke, so showers ashore instead of on the boat. Probably the membrane, our engineer says. Any chance it might be blocked? Mind you, the hoses (and pump) are wrist-thick ...

Regards, Edwin.

 

[Salty Pelican]

Salty Pelican rounds the Tower Bridge!

Tower Bridge ...

After three amazing days in London, the trip back home has started. Out of the port we turned starboard out, in order to take some nice pictures of Salty Pelican and the Tower Bridge.

Enjoy!
Edwin & Veronika.

 

[dannc]

Tower Bridge ...

After three amazing days in London, the trip back home has started. Out of the port we turned starboard out, in order to take some nice pictures of Salty Pelican and the Tower Bridge.

Enjoy!
Edwin & Veronika.

Three days is not enough time in London.

At least you missed spending time ***in*** The Tower of London!

Later,
Dan

 

[Salty Pelican]

We are in Ramsgate at the moment. A city in decline. Glory of a century past. Sad to see. Even in the harbor, the heart of the city, the facilities are bad or broken.

Good news? The black water discharge pump works again! We had the black water tank pumped empty via a shore station in London and that took care of the the blockage, it seems. Back to showers onboard, and that is lovely.

Today, our flotilla sails across the English Channel to Nieuwpoort, Belgium. A 70 NM journey. Skies are gray. It drizzles. Wind will be 2 to 3 Beaufort, so light conditions.

So far, for the journey, we used about 550 liters of our 1200 liters (310 gallon) diesel fuel capacity. We travelled for 51 hours, at higher cruising speeds than we normally do (2000 - 2200 rpm instead of 1800-1900 rpm). Also, the generator saw almost continuous use, since we need it to charge the stabilizer, and the heating system has been on 24/7 since it's cold. I like those numbers!

Regards, Edwin.

 

[Salty Pelican]

We are back in the Netherlands. Had to fix the shower drain pump. The filter that protects the pump is really, really small and needed cleaning. Easy fix. Tomorrow we'll sail back to our home port in Vianen. Tonight we'll celebrate mothers day with (some of) the kids in Gorcum.

Have a nice weekend y'all!

Regards, Edwin.

 

[Salty Pelican]

Update design & build Liquid Management 65h

Here's an exciting update on the design and build of our new boat. We think we found the yard that's gonna build our ship. If all goes well, she could be ready in about 15 months from now!

More info in a few weeks. For now? Well, lots of detailing going on with the design.

One of the things we added, is a gangway. To help with (especially) Mediterranean mooring.

Here's a picture.

Regards, Edwin & Veronika.

 

[dannc]

Here's an exciting update on the design and build of our new boat. We think we found the yard that's gonna build our ship. If all goes well, she could be ready in about 15 months from now!

More info in a few weeks. For now? Well, lots of detailing going on with the design.

One of the things we added, is a gangway. To help with (especially) Mediterranean mooring.

Here's a picture.

Regards, Edwin & Veronika.

Make sure you can deploy the dive ladders from the water.

I read an account where a guy was solo sailing in Scotland and he fell overboard at anchor. He had a very difficult time getting back on board and failed numerous attempts. He had enough energy for one more attempt and made it aboard by wedging his foot into the the gap between the hull and the top of the rudder.

If he had not gotten back on board with that last attempt, he would have died. He was so worn out that he laid down on a bunk and passed out. He did not even remove his wet clothes even though he was hypothermic.

If the boat had a ladder that could be deployed or used, from the water, he would have had not issues. Someone with cold, useless hands should be able to deploy the ladder.

Later,
Dan

 

[Salty Pelican]

Yeah, that's sound advise, Dan!

Regards, Edwin.

 

[twistedtree]

Make sure you can deploy the dive ladders from the water.

I read an account where a guy was solo sailing in Scotland and he fell overboard at anchor. He had a very difficult time getting back on board and failed numerous attempts. He had enough energy for one more attempt and made it aboard by wedging his foot into the the gap between the hull and the top of the rudder.

If he had not gotten back on board with that last attempt, he would have died. He was so worn out that he laid down on a bunk and passed out. He did not even remove his wet clothes even though he was hypothermic.

If the boat had a ladder that could be deployed or used, from the water, he would have had not issues. Someone with cold, useless hands should be able to deploy the ladder.

Later,
Dan

That's required by ABYC, and I expect CE as well.

 

[Salty Pelican]

General plan LM65h

Yes.

Here's a picture of the general plan of the LM65h:

Regards, Edwin.

 

[Salty Pelican]

Filling & Extraction Points / Deck Lay-out

Here's a close-up of the black water extraction points, fresh water and diesel tank filling points, and then some.

Regards, Edwin.

 

[Salty Pelican]

View of the stern ...

Here's a view from the stern of the LM65h.

Greetings from Milano, Italy, where we are for a distilling exhibition. 31 degrees , great food and drinks, and a lot of sales opportunities for our still manufacturing operation!

Regards, Edwin & Veronika.

 

[dannc]

...

Greetings from Milano, Italy, where we are for a distilling exhibition. 31 degrees , great food and drinks, and a lot of sales opportunities for our still manufacturing operation!

Regards, Edwin & Veronika.

I am sure the still that was on our land before we were the owners, did not look like the one in the image.

Before we bought the place, I was walking around and found where a still had been in use many decades ago. There was the rusted out remains of a can of kerosene for starting the fire and the top of a broken clay jug. If one has ever seen an episode of The Andy Griffith Show with the Darling's, the clay jug looks just like the one that Mr. Darling was playing.

Moonshining still happens in my county. But that is another story or two.

Later,
Dan

 

[Salty Pelican]

Yeah, our tech is like the new revolution in the distilling industry. We sell many of 'm. You can save at least 1 fte in workforce and 75% on energy costs, while producing drinks in a far more controlled manner. Based on conquering many countries all around the globe, in the last 9 years, after just two days in Italy, I can say: Italy will fall our way. Probably up to 40% market penetration in 2 to 3 years from now ...

In short: a great expo.

Regards to you all!

Edwin.

 

[Salty Pelican]

Side door ... and ladder

Dual function: side door and ladder.

Regards, Edwin & Veronika.

 

[Salty Pelican]

Update on choices & project planning!

Had a great talk today, finalizing the build specs of our new ship! Insulation will be a combination of armaflex, rockwool, and 'drip plates'. Hope that's the right word. Long story short: pretty great acoustic insulation numbers as well as good thermal insulation as well.

We also discussed the size of the Li-ion battery bank. 30 kWh it will be.

For night / intraread vision, we'll use the Raymarine Flir 300 system. With an additional augmented reality camera, and full integration with radar and AIS, to create an enhanced 360 degree surround vision.

We have secured the services of the Netherlands' best aluminium hull builder to build our hull #1. Expected build time will be 6 to 7 months. The shipyard will then fit the interior and technical installations in another 6 to 7 months.

As it looks now, LM65h #1 could be in the water by summer 2023. After that we have capacity to build up to two boats a year, with a throughput time per order of around 1 year (first installment to delivery).

More to come soon. We'll have a final decision meeting (go/no-go) in a week from now. Exciting times, since we have found a way forward (in these crazy, material-expensive, and component-shortage times) to not just build the boat, but do so in a manner that allows for a business case to build and sell more.

More info soon!

Regards, Edwin & Veronika.

 

[Salty Pelican]

lower deck lay-out

The lower deck consists of three main "bodies". The engine room sits at the center. Together with the centrally placed fuel tanks (3), this results in a nice central pivot point for the boat. Also, this set-up creates a neutral trim in all diesel and water load conditions. No need to pump stuff around for trimming purposes.

The second main "body' is the master bedroom, which is spacious and comfortable, with a kingsize bed and its own toilet and shower. To insulate this sleeping room from the engine room, the main tank (3 m3) and toilet and shower are placed between the ER and master bedroom. The master bedroom is situated aft, since that's basically the most comfortable place, movement-wise, for sleeping.

The third main body are the guest accommodations, that sit forward of the engine room. The guest quarters are set-up for a couple or a couple with young kids. It sleeps 4 with a couch, turning this cabin almost in a mini-apartment. Or the couch can be turned into two additional bunks (pullman), one situated above the other. The guest cabin also has its own toilet and shower, that also serves as a day head. The toilet and shower sit between ER and guest room for additional insulation.

The space, opposite to the forward shower and toilet, going downstairs and forward to the guest area, also houses an additional freezer and a washer/dryer combo.

The sleeping quarters are not situated at the forward and aft extremities of the ship. Instead, that's where the steering (aft) and additional storage is placed (both aft and forward). By not having the sleeping rooms at the extremities, pitch will be less of a concern. We expect that to result in more and better sleep comfort.

The engine room has a wide and spacious lay-out. The idea is that all serviceable parts should be reachable with ease. The easier that is, the less efforts it takes to check, and the better these procedures will be upheld. That's the idea!

Regards, Edwin & Veronika.

 

[Salty Pelican]

LM65h's section at center line

Here's a picture of our ship's center line. It shows, well, the section at the center line.

A few things I like to highlight, concern the underwater ship design. First, the bow has a negative angle to it in order to reduce the pitch movement and optimize for length over water.

It is combined with a fine water entry. Slicing through water and waves, rather than bobbing over them, that's what we are after. Will it result in a slightly wetter ride? Probably, but it will create a more comfortable movement and a shorter net route between departure and destination.

The underwater ship broadens towards the mid-section, where the beam over water is at its widest: 4m20. A narrow ship, or LDL-designed ship, which stands for low displacement to length. What the goal of LDL-design is? Primarily better efficiency. Better efficiency results in lower diesel fuel usage results in smaller needed tanks results in lower weight, which - in turn - further lowers diesel fuel usage ...

For the keel, we decided for a long and sturdy design. A shorter one would have been good enough, and would have resulted in a lower total wetted area, resulting in further efficiency gains. We decided not to go there, but embraced the larger and sturdier design. Why? First, we expect the added course and roll stability will - in real life scenario's - outweigh the benefits of focussing on "just" efficiency. Secondly, the sturdy and long, full keel helps the ship when beaching. Yes, it can beach.

The ship is 1m25 deep. Deepest at the propellor window, of course. The main tank sits just behind the engine. Two wing tanks sit next or slightly in front of the engine. In full-load situations, the ship tilts a little bit forward, reducing the shaft angle, improving efficiency. At half- or light-load conditions, it is only the main tank that's full or partially full. As it sits behind the engine, the 1 degree tilt forward is no longer there, but replaced with a 1 degree tilt backwards in order to keep the prop as low in the water as possible. Again, to optimize for fuel efficiency in half- or light-load sailing.

The aft part of the underwater ship consists of two main parts. First, the ascending part, then the descending bit near the transom. Descending transom, Why? Next paragraph. First, let's dive into the ascending aft part of the hull. We designed it to ascend at a low angle. This helps the water stick to the hull (more efficient) and allows for higher speeds through the water. As in "higher than hull speed". We find this important, not just for efficiency, but also because it helps the LM65h accelerate down waves, preventing broaching as much as possible. A "slower" ship drags and brakes when it is pushed down a wave too fast, increasing the chances of broaching. This design offers the contrary. Means the LM65h can easily speed up to 14 knots, down-wave. Please note that her cruising speed will be 10 knots and her top speed - in calm water - 11 to 11.5 knots, depending on load.

Now onwards to the descending last bit of the underwater ship, aft. It descends to help the LM65h generate lift aft. This is important because, as a ship approaches hull speed, the forward sections create lift. Since a ship sits in the water, this lift "rotates' the aft section deeper into the water. And since the aft section is wider, drag numbers "explode" and efficiency is lost. For LM65h, to achieve its high cruising speed at very economical diesel fuel usage numbers, we invented (and heavily researched) this solution and the exact execution via (amongst others) CFD. It works. It helps achieve an overall diesel consumption, at 10 knots, of 1 liter per 1 kilometer travelled. With the 7,000 liter fuel tanks, this results in a hefty action radius ...

All right, the last design that we wanted to optimize what the transom itself. It is designed to take advantage of wave energy. LM65h can surf and take advantage of following seas.

That's it for now. I hope you like the info shared!

Regards, Edwin.

 

[mcarthur]

... For LM65h, to achieve its high cruising speed at very economical diesel fuel usage numbers, we invented (and heavily researched) this solution and the exact execution via (amongst others) CFD. It works. It helps achieve an overall diesel consumption, at 10 knots, of 1 liter per 1 kilometer travelled.

That's an insanely good consumption figure! In comparison, Domino (the very efficient 65' powercat) is really close to 1L/km at 10kn, and the Dashew FPB64 is over that at about 1.3L/km at 10kn, both in cruising trim.

 

[Salty Pelican]

Thanks for the feedback and numbers, Mac. It is very efficient indeed. And these numbers are with the stabs, etc. included.

When we investigated ocean-crossing expedition vessels, what felt like being overlooked by the great majority of boats was: 1. The ability to cruise at high speeds to increase weather windows and sail away from (or around) harm; 2. A focus on comfortable movement at sea vs. harbor comfort, as seems the main objective of so many of today's boat and trawler designs; 3. Economy.

If crossing an ocean feels unsafe, one won't cross. If crossing an ocean is an uncomfortable affair, one won't use the boat for its intended use case. When the costs of doing that ocean crossing are expensive to the point of prohibitive, well, then one won't pursue that goal either.

Throttling down to 8 knots gets the numbers closer to 2 kilometers (a bit over 1 NM) per liter, by the way.

Regards, Edwin.

 

[mcarthur]

Thanks for the feedback and numbers, Mac. It is very efficient indeed. And these numbers are with the stabs, etc. included.

When we investigated ocean-crossing expedition vessels, what felt like being overlooked by the great majority of boats was: 1. The ability to cruise at high speeds to increase weather windows and sail away from (or around) harm; 2. A focus on comfortable movement at sea vs. harbor comfort, as seems the main objective of so many of today's boat and trawler designs; 3. Economy.

This is very similar to Dashew's comments I think I recall correctly on being able to get away from weather that wasn't predicted, or even handle weather that was predicated in order to get where you want to go.

I do think there's a little less need of that in the modern era with, in general, pretty good 3-5 day forecasts for large areas of the earth. In many places, 5 or even 3 days notice is enough to get out of the worst of harms way if you're are looking ahead regularly: at 6kn, 3 days is 450nm to somewhere safer and 5 days is 750nm.
Of course there are less certain parts of the world, and global weather is changing and not necessarily keeping to previous patterns. But I still think there's generally less need for a fast solution to get-out-of-unexpected-weather situation.

...Throttling down to 8 knots gets the numbers closer to 2 kilometers (a bit over 1 NM) per liter, by the way.

At 8kn, FPB64 is about 1.15-1.2 l/nm and Domino is about 1.1 l/nm which seems about the same. Not unexpected since all three boats are well under theoretical hull speed. A lot better than us at just under 2 l/nm (although we are shorter by a fair bit)!

 

[Salty Pelican]

Board meeting!

Yesterday's board meeting. Over 125 years of boat building experience at one table!

Regards, Edwin.

 

[Snapdragon III]

I just discovered this thread and read the whole thing end to end. What an exciting project! I have had many fantasies of doing something similar, but I am not quite rich enough yet. the FPB 64 has been at the top of my list as #1 dream boats for years, so I definitely appreciate the path you are going down.Reading 20+ pages of this thread I have so many opinions on different aspects of your design you have discussed. I will list some of my thoughts, I will dwell on the negatives, but don't take this as me not liking what you are doing. I love 90% of it, these are just the things I would want to personally change.

1. I understand what you are trying to do with the main helm, and the seating situation, and I think it would be fine for coastal cruising, but I don't think you will be happy with it for crossing oceans. Sitting up at the helm seat will not be that comfortable for hours on end especially with rough weather and side to side motion, and you will want to kick back more. To do this you will go sit in the L shaped couch behind, but then the turned around bench will be in the way when you want to get back to the helm to check your electronics, etc. My suggestion is to get rid of the two fixed seats on the Starboard side, and replace them with two nice Sidd style helm chairs on 5 leg mobile bases. Devise a way to bolt the bases down easily in a few different locations. At anchor they will live on the port side. On passage, the aft one will live bolted down right in front of the helm, and the bench will get bolted down in it's place on the starboard side of the cabin. That way you will have two nice helm chairs at the front of the pilot house during passages. They will also be great places to perch when at anchor. My last boat was set up with a mobile helm chair similar to this, and it was better than I ever would have imagined it would be. When at anchor the way you have it will be magic.

2. I would put a nice big hatch or dorade vent over the guest shower. It would be a great place to get lots of air flow through the boat, but if spray or rain got in it, it would be no big deal as it would just be in the shower and wouldn't hurt anything.

3. I would put a lip all the way around the main cabin roof so that any rain or salt spray that gets on the roof won't drip off, hit the deck, then splash on the windows. Much better to have it all run back to a couple of drains, and exit the roof in a controlled manner. Also good for collecting rain water. In cold rainy climates it will keep all the water off the windows when you are at anchor, and help keep condensation problems to a minimum.

4. I might misunderstand the plan, but it looks to me like the only door to exit the boat is a sailboat style companion way, with a short door and sliding top. This would be way too big a compromise for me. I would either want a doghouse so I could have a full height door, which would block the rear helm view, or a hard dodger so it could be opened in the rain and especially salt spray during a crossing, without getting a bunch of salt water inside the boat. I actually kind of like the idea of a hard dodger there, and moving the outdoor helm up to the back of the cabin under it. This would keep all the electronics dry and out of the sun too, which would be nice. At 10 kn upwind in any type of offshore sea, I would imagine that this is going to be a very wet boat, with tons of spray coming over it continuously. A covered outside area would be nice.

5. I would want some way to control the boat in harbor situations from the bow for anchoring, picking up moorings, etc. With no side doors in the pilot house, it is a long way from your helm to your anchor! This could be as simple as a nice wired remote tied into your microcomander engine controls, autopilot steering, thrusters, etc. A few companies make nice versions of these. Would also be really nice for docking when you are by yourself. Would also be nice to have a depth display up there you could see while you were anchoring, doesn't need to be anything fancy. Would also be nice if you could integrate a good place for a couple people to sit on the bow. Could be as easy as sloping the front of the cabin at a good angle so can sit on the deck on a boat cushion and comfortably lean back against the cabin front.

6. This would not be a big problem where I normally cruise as we have tons of super protected anchorages, but if I were going world cruising in this boat I would be afraid of it being really tender in anchorages that aren't very protected. with it's light weight, slender beam, light displacement, and shallow draft, I could imagine it being a big problem in many areas. I think the FPB solved this with flopper stoppers on paravane poles. My last boat had paravanes stabilizers, and flopper stoppers, and they worked really well. Adding them would add weight aloft, windage, cost, and shadows for the solar, So I can see why you wouldn't want to go down that road. I think you mentioned electric stabilizer as some point, which my be able to provide some zero speed stabilization?

7. I think the kite is a dumb idea. In my option the best thing about a trawler is that when the weather suddenly goes to ****, and all hell breaks loose, you don't have to go outside. The last thing I want to do in the middle of the ocean, with my wife sleeping at 2 am, is go fight some kite that is at risk due to the unexpected thunder storm cell that just rolled through. If you want to sail build a sail boat, or motor sailor. I do love a good motorsailer, and wish there were more good options in that regard.

8. I don't think your dingy storage on the transom will be satisfactory for high latitude ocean travel. If you have it lashed down hard enough, it might be safe, but I think you will get in situations where you have waves breaking completely over the dingy, and even if it is safe, it will be unnerving, and super hard on the engine and controls. You mentioned early on that it could be stored in the cockpit, but I don't see how that would work with the current plan.

9. If you could do it structurally, and design wise, I think it would be nice to have a small section of the deck on the starboard side that stepped down a couple steps, and have a side door in the house that opened up onto it. Again, if it was possible structurally, it would be nice to have a side door in the hull there to have a low spot to step off onto the dock from. I think your current boat might be set up this way. Wouldn't have to be a full height door. Put the door in the middle between the two mobile pilot chairs.

10. If I was building this project, especially if going with single screw as I think you are planning, I would make whatever compromises necessary to go keel cooled/dry stack. The keel cooling is super easy on an aluminum boat. My last boat was set up this way and it was so nice. Zero salt water on the engines. No raw water pump impeller to screw up or change, no Zincs to worry about, no strainer to clog up, no exhaust elbow to corrode, no chance of flooding muffler and salt water in the engine, no heat exchanger to corrode or plug up. It eliminates so many things that need maintenance or can break down. Would add to peace of mind crossing oceans on a single screw.

11. From the renderings you have posted I don't find the look of your design beautiful, or sexy. I have a hard time putting my finger on exactly why. For the record I am in love with the looks of the FPB's , and the XPM 78 so it's not that I don't like the look of this type of boat. The first thing I don't like is the reverse bow. I think it would look way better with just a couple of inches of positive rake on the bow. I am sure you could add a small bulb low down to get the exact same performance, but I think it would look better. The other thing is a harder nut to crack in terms of how I would fix it. I think the rear cockpit and height required for the aft state room make it look too tall in the aft end. This is a very common problem with most boats with aft cabins, and while I get the utility of the design, it is hard thing to make sexy. One thing that I think would help right off the bat would be to show the side doors of the aft cockpit closed in the render, so it didn't look like a separate little house, but more visually connected to the main house. There might be some paint trick that would help, like painting a line from the bottom of the seat backs up a lighter color to make it appear not as tall. See attached picture for the boat with a rear cabin/cockpit that is the best I have ever seen visually. I also think I hard dodger over the back of the house, and the front of the cockpit might help make it look nicer, but hard to say without seeing it rendered.

 

[Salty Pelican]

Hi Snapdragon,

Glad you enjoyed reading this thread & thanks for chiming in. Each boat is a compromise, and everyone makes different choices based on use-case, preference, and experience. With that in mind, I'll try to carefully explain our considerations on each and every one of your points.

1. Most ocean crossing boats don't even have a settee from which to steer. Talking about sail boats. Our set-up is ideal for the ocean crossing itself. I think it is the coastal parts, with steeper waves and variations in depth, that create a better use-case for the captain chairs. But they are comfy, indeed. We have considered designing a second lay-out where the flip-up bench is replaced by one or two captain chairs. Moving furniture around is not my preferred option, especially given the weight of the better captain chairs. For hull #1 we decided to go for the flip-up bench option, because it maximizes living space over actual steering oriented seating, to stress that the use-case (primarily) is long ocean crossings. Please be informed that all seats have belts, to keep people in place or at least more comfortable in place.

2. We decided for forced air management vs. dorades, for maximum control and a cleaner dek that can now be used for recreational purposes while at anchor.

3. We are actually working on that. A secondary benefit may be fresh water harvest during squals.

4. Door is pretty big. Less entry points to maximize safety and to also maximize living space.

5. There is a dolphin seat at the front and a double bed as well. With the possibility to add shades.

6. LM65h has reverse / zero speed stabilization for while at anchor. Also the lower and more aft oriented profile prevents her from "hunting" in bigger winds, while at anchor.

7. Maybe sailing is a dumb idea. But kiting should be done during the day. Saves fuel and, well, after a few days at sea, one might enjoy the activity. I expect especially ex-sailors may enjoy this feature. I myself expect to use it less, as I am a motor boat geek and no sailor. We decided to incorporate in in hull #1, because it's an option we want to show to potential buyers.

8. Dingy is self-draining and can be stored, when needed.

9. Steps is what we didn't want. At high seas it is unsafe. Unless you want to go the full trawler-like direction of building basically steel walls and roofs between the person outside and the sea. Not a go-to place in this more efficient design.

10. Our opinions vary.

11. Ironically I know the Chuck Paine Long Range Cruiser very well. Have visited it twice and sailed her once. Sorry to see you didn't study her lay-out a bit more (or ours), since her aft master bedroom was the inspiration to our master bedroom. It delivers the same big master cabin in combination with an outside entertainment and steering position. Just like on LM65h, even though our cabin and outside deck space are bigger, since the CP only measures about 58 feet. The CP has more trawler-like solutions. Unfortunately she doesn't have the underwater-ship for her to sail across an ocean very well. Max cruise speed, before fuel performance figures go through the roof, is about 6.5 knots. Our design is quite a bit more elongated. I personally love the negative bow and vertical roof top/windows/salon design. But taste is very personal indeed.

Not sure what "hard dodger" etc. means. If you care to explain, I can give you some feedback on why or why not?

Regards, Edwin.

 

[Snapdragon III]

Hi Snapdragon,


Not sure what "hard dodger" etc. means. If you care to explain, I can give you some feedback on why or why not?

Regards, Edwin.

By hard dodger, I mean a spray hood that covers companion way door/top slider so it can be open during spray, or rain and you won't have water coming into the boat. By hard, I just mean aluminum and glass, instead of a canvas one. I also think it might help to visually tie the cabin and outside cockpit together. All cruising sailboats have dodgers for a reason. I once did a delivery from Hawaii to Seattle without one, returning the boat home after we did the Vic-Maui yacht race. It was miserable, and I swore to myself that I would never cross an ocean on a sailboat without a dodger again. Not as important on a power boat as you don't have to be outside all the time, but still nice to be able to open the door and go outside while beating upwind without having a bunch of salt water pouring down the hatch.

 

[Snapdragon III]

Hi Snapdragon,


11. Ironically I know the Chuck Paine Long Range Cruiser very well. Have visited it twice and sailed her once. Sorry to see you didn't study her lay-out a bit more (or ours), since her aft master bedroom was the inspiration to our master bedroom. It delivers the same big master cabin in combination with an outside entertainment and steering position. Just like on LM65h, even though our cabin and outside deck space are bigger,
Regards, Edwin.

I did study the Chuck Paine's layout and understand the beauty of it, and that it is very similar to what you are designing. That is why I posted the picture of it. I can't put my finger on exactly why, but I think that boat pulled this very practical layout off in a way that is more visually pleasing than any other boat I have seen. it might be the higher bulwarks around the outside, and the high stern that visually hide some of the height of the rear cabin and cockpit. The contrasting paint colors probably help as well.
Another factor that probably comes into not loving the look of your rear cockpit area for me is probably just cultural. I come from the West coast North America, where pretty much all trawlers designs come from old wood fishing boats that had a high pilot house in the center/front, then a low deck in the back to fish off. Its just the normal way for me to think of sea worthy boats. It's very different than the Netherlands where boats with large cabins in the stern are super common. The vast majority of boats around here with aft staterooms are pretty ugly in my opinion.

 

[Salty Pelican]

We are currently on our way to Budapest, Hungary. Sitting at the airport as we speak.

Apart from our LM65h project, we have news about "Salty Pelican". We are about to sell her. Over the last years she served us well and taught us a lot about boating and what we look for, both inland, sea, and coastal. So much so, that we think we have found the successor we were looking for.

What were we looking for? A boat where steering, cooking, and inside/outside living takes place on one and the same level. Slightly more space and modernity. Like the capacity to sleep 6 instead of 4, as we currently do on "Salty Pelican". Modernity as in 2015 design/build vs. 2007. So latest engine generation, and relatively modern navigational suite.

A bit bigger. Yes, at about twice the overall water displacement, she is ticking that box, for sure. A more silent boat. "Salty Pelican" is quite loud inside. This is okay in small company, while steering outside, but when with more people ... well, a bit noisy.

The boat we are buying is a steel displacement boat. 26 tons (metric) empty. about 29 fully loaded. 50 feet long (15m20) and 4m88 wide (16 feet?). Three cabins. Each sleeps 2. Washer/dryer. Huge master cabin. DET66 Vetus-Deutsch M3 tier engine. Six cylinders, 170 hp at 2,500 rpm. Fast displacement design elements at the aft underwater-ship, generating lift above 6 knots. Axe-like bow for maximum over water length. Huge opening roof for an almost cabriolet-like experience.

We test-sailed her earlier this week and were very, very impressed. Yes, she needs Separ filters, a new radar & AIS, and probably a new battery bank next year, but it's a bigger, more comfortable boat that allows us to extend our sail season well into autumn and even winter.

She holds 2,250 liters of diesel. At 11 km/h she uses 5.5 liters per hour. At a nice cruising speed of 13 km/h (7 knots), she drinks 9 liters per hour. About 2,2 gallons?

Noice levels at 7 knots behind the wheel (inside steering position)? 53 dB. When sailing Salty Pelican at that speed, measured inside, she produces over 70 dB, so that'll be quite the change.

Here's a picture:

Regards, Edwin & Veronika.

 

[Hippocampus]

Would think this more suitable.
Usually do passages with four. One at helm, one asleep nearby, two totally off watch. Agree master in stern is desirable. Agree direct eye sight rather than camera views is desirable when in close quarters. But most people cruise as a couple and take on crew just for passage. Other time is when you have visitors (another couple or family in a coastal setting). So on passage one is sitting at the helm. Glance at the instruments. Read. Listen to music or a audiobook on headsets. Get up for a snack, pee break or a coffee. If a concern poke the one on the couch passage berth to get a brief break. Often have a really good intense conversation. The current layout doesn’t seem welcoming for those sometimes long and boring nighttime watches. Also would want to be able to flip the dinghy upside down and put the engine on a rail enclosed in shrink wrap or below. If pooped the dinghy will drain slowly and it’s interior is a lot of weight. Covers get destroyed by boarding seas.

 

[Salty Pelican]

The dinghy can be stored. LM65h offers plenty of sleeping room in the main room, if that's to ones liking.

Regards, Edwin.

 

[guy with a boat]

Edwin,


You have received many comments here from experienced boaters that have looked at your plans and taken the time to provide excellent feedback. The feedback includes some constructive criticism and suggestions for improvements. Your response has pretty consistently been to explain your logic and stick with your decisions. Of course it is your project and you should build the boat you want, but if you want to pursue the idea of selling this model, you have to make it appeal to someone else. This thread is full of suggestions for improvements, many of which may be required if you wish to successfully market the design to the cruising community.


Best of luck with your project.