Rescued Californian

[Supercruise]

Greetings all - I've been on this forum for many years but just a lurker. in October 2019 I purchased a Californian 34 project boat. I've been bringing her back to life over the last year and a half. It has been a learning experience but I have learned so much from all of the posts on this forum. I think I've read most of the posts on this forum at least once and sometimes more.

Background - I'm a semi-retired Aerospace Engineer. Supercruise, my handle, is a term used for an aircraft that can sustain supersonic speed without the use of after burners. I think this is appropriate for the Californian - plane without guzzling fuel. I have been wanting a Californian for over six years and finally pulled the trigger on this project boat. I've been getting her back to cruising condition but there have been many challenges. She has two Perkins 6T.354.4 Range 4 engines and the raw water circuit was very neglected. I finally addressed those issues but I still have a question that I could not find on the forum.

My current issue, that I cannot find on any post, is that my boat has two Left Hand props. The engines and Velvet Drive 1.5:1 transmissions appear to be original. This transmission is not reversible and the motors are not reversible. The prop shop thinks this is not original and has not heard of any twin screws that are not counter rotating. Does anyone else have two left hand props? I have replaced the starboard Tranny with a re-built 1.5:1 unit. The Port has not been upgraded. To go with counter rotating props I need to go with Velvet Drive 1.9:1 tranny. The current setup does not track well. Any suggestions?

I was able to take her from Fort Myers Fl area to Everglade National Park (shark river) this January (Pic). It was an amazing trip. My goal is to be able to go to the Dry Tortugas. I'm not quite there yet. This is an amazing boat!

Thank you!
Felix

 

[STB]

Something sounds off. What are the engine serial numbers? The model number on each transmission?

Some velvet drive transmissions are readily reversible.

When you look in the engine room, are both engines actually turning the same way? The shafts? Which way?

If both props had the same turning tendency you'd feel it
If a prop was spinning the opposite of the design intent, you'd know it too.

Was the boat surveyed? Did the surveyor note anything?

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard and congrats on your new boat. Have fun!

 

[Pete Meisinger]

Thats a connundrum for sure. You're a smart guy, you will figure it out. A starting point might be to join "Boat Diesel" it's a few bucks a year and there are some real experts on the forum.

pete

 

[Supercruise]

Hi Gkesden - yes, something is definitely off. The 1.5:1 are not reversible. I

 

[STB]

Hi Gkesden - yes, something is definitely off. The 1.5:1 are not reversible. I

Can you get me the serial numbers on each engine and the model number on each of the original transmissions? Where "original" means as it came to you?

Also the year of the boat and Hull ID, if known.

With that I can start to sort possibilities.

It may take about a month, but a FOIA request to the USCG will get you the original builder's certificate with the original engine serial numbers.

 

[Supercruise]

Thanks for the quick reply.
the engines are:
TU700254582168H
TU700254640482H
These match the original bill of sale from OEM.

The trannies are VD 10-18-004 - definitely not reversible.

I purchased the boat as-is but reviewed the prior Surveys. No indication if any issue and the engine numbers matched. The engines were rebuilt twice and documentation was provided. No indication that there was an engine swap.
I am a member of boat diesel and searched their site. I cannot tell if the 6T-354.4 Range 4 came in a counter rotating model.

Do these engines come with counter rotating options?

Both engines and shafts rotate in same direction (left hand prop).
The only thing I can think of is when the engine was rebuilt that one engine was converted to LH turn.

I am puzzled but I think the best remedy is to put in two 1.9:1 VD trannies and have one counter rotate. The boat does not track well with two LH props.

 

[Supercruise]

This is a 1982 California, btw.
MFG serial number: JCM34182M82B

 

[STB]

To my knowledge, which could be wrong, that is a reversible model.

When one builds it, the pump housing has "top" arrows on both ends, each with an arrow pointing with a different rotation. If one uses the "top" that corresponds to the engine's rotation as a reference, when aligning the pump into the housing, one gets a standard rotation.

Doing the opposite, as I understand it, will generate transmission that rotates the shaft the opposite way. There may be other changes needed in addition. I seem to remember there to be something else relatively minor, well, I guess unless left undone!

I am not a transmission rebuilder. I just know what I think I've been told

I'd suggest calling a rebuilder experienced over many years with the line and/or a rebuilder at an official BW dealer, and if that doesn't work, a place like S&W in Wilmington, CA or TAD in Virginia that know the mods that make Perkins work in the field, even if not BW endorsed, etc. Heck, I might even start with S&W or TAD. .Even if they don't do it in house, if it can be done, they'll get it done for you.

But, my thinking is that your situation is the result of a replacement with one off the shelf that matched model numbers -- without realizing the original was tweaked. Or, possibly a rebuild gone wrong.

The numbers on your blocks are both standard rotation.

 

[Lepke]

From Velvet Drive installation manual:

 

[Supercruise]

I have contacted TAD and a marine transmission shop in Fort Lauderdale and both said the 1.5:1 is not reversible. My prop shop did not think the 1.5:1 was reversible either.

What's interesting is this article showing the Californian performance. It has the same engines and transmissions my boat has. If the 1.5:1 is not reversible, then The Range 4 has to be reversible or it came from the factory with two left screws. Is that possible?

 

[Supercruise]

I will try to go by boat today and check the other tranny model. I assumed it as the same 10-18-004 which I am told is not reversible and that is the model number on the STBD side. Maybe GKESGEN is right that they put in an off- the shelf on the STBD side. There is another clue that makes me think this is possible. There is evidence that STBD shaft log has been repaired. It had to be a pretty significant impact to cause a major refurbishment. Perhaps the incident took out the transmission and the boat yard dropped in a different model during the repair. The Tranny shop in Fort Lauderdale said that the -004 is definitely not reversible. Let me see what on the Port side. Thanks all for your advice.

 

[STB]

Please call S & W Diesel in Wilmington, CA and ask for Scott or Don. 310-835-3155. In my mind, they are the authorities on these engines and installations.

Please see page 6 of the manual below. It lists your exact model and describes it as reversible.
--- https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_1NsLTuf-L9JzRp9L-fTwar1REnqYa06/view?usp=drivesdk

Edit: But, as I've looked more closely at it, that seems to mean that it can work with either regular or contra rotating engines, not that it can reverse the rotation. See the -03 vs -04, for example.

This is puzzling.

I will try to go by boat today and check the other tranny model. I assumed it as the same 10-18-004 which I am told is not reversible and that is the model number on the STBD side. Maybe GKESGEN is right that they put in an off- the shelf on the STBD side. There is another clue that makes me think this is possible. There is evidence that STBD shaft log has been repaired. It had to be a pretty significant impact to cause a major refurbishment. Perhaps the incident took out the transmission and the boat yard dropped in a different model during the repair. The Tranny shop in Fort Lauderdale said that the -004 is definitely not reversible. Let me see what on the Port side. Thanks all for your advice.

 

[Supercruise]

Thanks for the manual Gkesden. I have one for my model but this has more models.

This confirms what I have been told that you can operate them in either direction with proper pump arrangement, but that they are direct drives and follow the engine rotation. You cannot configure them to run LH and RH with two engines having standard rotation.

What is interesting is that the article I posted earlier had the same 1.5:1 Velvet Drives and same Perkins I have.

It would be great to hear from another Californian owner that has this same setup.

I hope to go by the boat later and check the Port tranny just to see if it is the same model. Then I'll have a little more info.

 

[ghost]

It’s been too many years, but we had a 34 with twin t6354 and the props were NOT the same rotation. So yes, something has changed. I have no recollection of the transmission model.

What is strange is that velvet drive models with ability to reverse the rotation are typically a different down angle than standard models. Which would mean that unless they changed the running gear, they might have had to change the positions and angle of the motor mounts?

Anyway, those referencing swapping the pump for rotation, that’s NOT reversing, that’s just the ability to work with either a left or right rotating input.

Anyway, not an expert, just done enough repowers to know some of the stumbling blocks. Wish I had a better memory.

 

[Capn Craig]

I have the exact engines in my 34 LRC, same model year also. My props are counter rotating. The starboard engine rotates LH but The prop turns RH. The reversing is done in the transmission. Earlier versions of this boat and motor combination had the engine rotation reversed. Perkins stopped making the reverse rotation engine sometime around1980. Although most parts are common with the standard rotation engine some are not. These parts are extremely hard to get as Perkins no longer makes or sells them. Californian then built boats with a transmission that reversed rotation on the starboard side. Borg Warner Stopped making this transmission In about 1985 or so. In a bit of STOOPIDITY, They stopped providing parts, They also scrapped all parts in stock. As a result these trannies are exceedingly rare and expensive if available used. I was warned about this when I had the port transmission rebuilt a few years ago at Federal Marine in Chicago. The guy there ( Jim Aspel https://federalmarinetransmissions.com Phone 708-352-2200. ) He said take good care of mine as they are virtually irreplaceable. I suspect yours took a bad hit at some point. The reworked shaft log points to this. Replacing the transmission with a standard non reversing model and changing props was a cheaper fix for the destroyed transmision. Im sure the surveyor never noticed as did you when you bought the boat. After putting up with the boats bad benavior you did.
Call Jim at Federal Marine and he will explain this and might have an idea on what to now. Jim was employed in engineering at BW at the time. He likes to talk. I doubt you could find more experienced guy in marine transmissions
Good Luck.
Craig

 

[Supercruise]

OK, mystery solved but now to decide way forward.

I went and checked my Port tranny and it is a 10-14-001 which indeed can be made to counter rotate to the shaft input. It is a 1.58:1 ratio. The -001 is for a LH prop and it is in my starboard bay so that makes sense. See page 5 on link below. The -002 is for a RH prop. That is probably what came with the boat. It also makes sense that the Californian article stated the test configuration used a 1.5:1. The article author must have truncated. This was the most baffling part to me but now makes sense.

https://www.marinepartsexpress.com/PDF/velvet/cr2service.pdf

As was noted, the PO must have damaged the shaft log and Stbd tranny and went the cheap route. This is not surprising given the overall neglected condition of the boat. There was no love shown to her but she had good bones and the price was right.

The note about the approach angle is very interesting. I've been wondering why my Port Engine fwd mounts are much higher than the STBD mounts. This makes for a steeper engine inclination.

My options:
1. repower with rebuilt Cummins 6BTA and matching transmission and props. Hopefully save shafts.
2. move 18-004 tranny to Port and rebuild 14-001 and change rotations. The difference in gear ratio is minor and maybe prop shop can tweak prop to match thrust. It appears this would require changing engine incidence angle which may rule this out. I need to look at tranny drawing to see how that would work.
3. live with two LH props and fix the autopilot . As is, the boat is constantly drifting.

As they say, the most expensive boat you can own is the cheapest boat you buy.

Thanks all. Any suggestions on other options welcome!

 

[STB]

I'd just square it away by replacing one or both of the transmissions with rebuilts. They can usually be had for ~$2k - $4k, each. I'd give a place like S&W or TAD a call, let them know what you have, and see what they can do. I'd also check eBay actions, call local rebuilders, etc. Except for certain models, there are plenty of those transmissions around.

You are going to need to buy 1 new prop anyway, so if the ratio isn't right but can be adjusted with the pitch that part is "relatively free". And, you can repitch your old prop.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that you may be able to flip your one tranny, get a new tranny, and buy a prop, or get a couple of them that are close enough in ratio to the old one to adjust out at the prop.

 

[Supercruise]

Thanks gkesden. That may be the thing to do. Sadly, I just replaced the stbd tranny,, but it’s really sunk cost. Still cheaper than repower. I’ve put a lot of money into the Perkins and they are running pretty nice. I got it from TAD. Maybe they’ll make me a deal on an exchange. Probably the the best option.

 

[Capn Craig]

You folks did not read my explanation reply careful enough This problem cant be fixed with the current or new transmission. Reversing the transmission is not the same as a transmission that reverses the rotation of input/output. The transmissions rotation can be reversed to match the input. But that does not change the input/output they still turn the same way. What the gentleman needs is a transmission that does change the direction of the output to input.
That requires an extra gear on the output. I believe it is a planatary gear. Those are no longer available, nor are parts.
Call Federal Marine, ask for Jim, He may have a lead on used parts or a complete transmission But dont hold your breath, This is a known problem. Changing the engine rotation is not possible due to parts availability. Changing the enngine requires a new cam shaft, and other no longer available parts. Good Luck to the OP. Call Jim at Federal Marine he may have used options. Worth a phone call.

 

[tiltrider1]

I'm showing up to this party late and it sounds like the OP has things figured out. Clearly the PO did something strange. Probably did it to save money even though it made things work poorly.

If the transmissions match the boat and the OP said they did. I would get the correct transmission on the correct engine and reverse the one that is wrong.

However, Capn Craig brings up a good point. It is possible that the parts needed are no longer available and that might be how the PO got into this configuration.

I'm not a transmission specialist. I know a lot about velvet drives but nowhere near as much as Harbor Marine in Everett. They know everything. I'm sure some one has made a recommendation closer to FL that is equally as good. I would have a long conversation with an expert before I spent any money on this.

 

[Supercruise]

I'll definitely give Jim at Federal Marine a call.

I agree with your point. Even if I find the correct model for my engine and setup, I still have the parts shortage issue and the Port Transmission could go out at any time. This would be the time to correct the issue rather than putting it off.

I'll update after I talk with Jim.

 

[Supercruise]

I gave Jim a call and explained my situation. He is very knowledgeable. He indicated that this sounded familiar from a couple of years ago so could have been the PO that contacted him.

Bottom line is that he is not aware of any 10-14-00x transmissions out there and as was mentioned previously here, there are no spare parts. He mentioned the ZF63A as a possible replacement but it has a 5.63" drop compared to the 1.23" drop for the 10-14-00x. However, it has an 8 degree angle; this will pull the engine front down. My calculations show 6.7" assuming 48" from pivot point, so it might fit within my engine room height. The new transmission is also about 9" shorter than what I have. So to go to the ZF63A will require new props, shaft, and realigning the motors on the stringers. Hopefully the rear mounts can be reused as I just replaced both sets.

I will need to do some more research on the ZF63A compatibility with the Perks and also with a possible future repower with Cummins. For now, I will live with two LH props. If I decide to upgrade tranny, I'll start a new thread on that episode.

Thanks again to all for your experience in this area.

 

[Lady_K]

Our boat, Lady K, is a 1982 34’ Californian with ST6.3544M Perkins. Years ago we replaced our BW transmissions with the ZF63A and couldn’t be happier. We replaced all engine mounts with identical mounts and the angle iron they sit on. We also needed to modify the exhaust risers and had new shafts made. We kept the same props but if we were to it again would replace the props.

 

[SoWhat]

The 10-14's were the HD version and probably not as common as the 10-13 (AKA CR2). The 10-13 was rated at 172hp and the 10-14 was rated for 274hp. I don't know the rating of your Perkins but typically they were 165. Many different turbo configurations but you could give up speed for a less robust transmission.

It might be possible to sell your 10-14-001 and your 10-18-004 and then purchase a 10-13-001 and a 10-13-002. 10-13's are scarce but available. Note the transmissions are the standard 71C but the reduction gears are different and have dropped output shafts.

Another possibility would be to just sell the 10-14-001 and replace it with a 10-18-003. (or AS12-72C) It would handle the hp and at least give you the same gear ratio for each transmission. The manual appears to indicate it is a CR unit?

 

[Supercruise]

I checked with TAD and some e-bay suppliers to see if they had a 10-13-002. They are willing to rebuild one but none in stock.

I think I'll follow Lady K's path and switch to ZF-63As but it will be summer before I take this project on. It looks like they have a 1:58 ratio so I should be able to keep one prop if I go with that ratio.

 

[Xlshrimp]

What a great vessel, the generosity with which you the community share this rare info freely is truly what makes this forum so important to so many. See you out there

 

[Martygras]

Do you have the original generator? I have an 81 Californian with Onan MDJE 7.5 KW and am looking to replace as parts are no longer available. I am looking for advice on replacing with a new generator. I have 3208 Cats for mains so I cant offer any advice on the Perkins.