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01-02-2020, 09:26 PM
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#21
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Guru
City: Sioux Falls, South Dakota
Vessel Name: Xanadu
Vessel Model: Mainship 37 Motor Yacht
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,472
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Changed all four of my cheap, junky white plastic tank vent thru hulls last summer to larger chrome plated bronze (fuel, holding and two water tanks). Took hours, removing access panels, removing settee cushions, removing the flatscreen cabinet. Yelling directions through the hull to my wife out on the slip finger, to hold the new thru hull fitting straight while I tightened the ring nut inside. Squeezing myself into a tiny space between an interior wall and the hull. And I left a really nice LED work lantern sealed up inside a hull space that I'll have to retrieve this spring. But the whole discussion on this thread is giving me a profound sense of smug relief. Done!
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01-02-2020, 09:48 PM
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#22
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Guru
City: AR
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Brockerts
Hmmm, if your holding the peddle down, and keeping it down, water continues to flow. Where does all that water go? Doesn't it continue to the tank and there by keep an open a passage for air to enter for a pump out at the same time? The Brockerts
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Nope. There is no open passage in a VacuFlush system. Here's how a VF works: The accumulated suction pulls bowl contents as far as the vacuum pump (which means it has to go through the vacuum tank first). The vacuum pump simultaneously PUSHES the flush the rest of the way to the holding tank while it sucks all the air out of the system between the bowl and the pump. It shuts down when the correct level of vacuum has been achieved whether the flush has made it all the way to the holding tank or not. The pump can't create a new vacuum as long as the pedal stays down. So any water continuing to come into the bowl will only run downhill into the vacuum tank in the vac generator and stay there. If you fill up the vacuum tank with water, it'll only fill up the hose from the toilet.
So there's no way that a VF system can vent a holding tank. But it is marginally possible that removing the hose on the holding tank inlet fitting can do it. However, I would not remove it where you indicated on your drawing, I'd remove it from the holding tank.
--Peggie
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01-02-2020, 10:04 PM
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#23
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Guru
City: Sarasota,FL/Thomasville,GA
Vessel Name: Steppin Stone IV
Vessel Model: Marine Trader Kelly Trawler 46
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,815
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The Brockerts years ago my wife found Peggy's book and bought us one since we have bought them for others.
A standby or short term fix we found years ago ( when our vent was plugged) was to take a small copper pipe bend it in a L and put it into the side of the hole you empty the tank and use the rubber fitting not the screw in type but caution stay away from the copper pipe end because it will burp
many times it is not the vent clogged but the line to the vent
__________________
Alan
Skype roatan63
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01-02-2020, 11:15 PM
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#24
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Guru
City: AR
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,515
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A standby or short term fix we found years ago ( when our vent was plugged) was to take a small copper pipe bend it in a L and put it into the side of the hole you empty the tank and use the rubber fitting not the screw in type but caution stay away from the copper pipe end because it will burp
I can't visualize what you're describing. Hopefully it doesn't vent the tank inside the boat because that would violate USCG regs. They require that all waste tanks--sewage and gray water--be vented to the outside of the boat, even just short term.
years ago my wife found Peggy's book and bought us one since we have bought them for others.
Thank you very much for that! However, a lot of changes in marine toilet and other sanitation equipment technology occurred between 2003 when I wrote the first one and 2016 when the current edition was published. In fact, about the only things that hadn't changed were the laws of physics! So if you still have the first one, you might want to consider replacing it with the updated version (see link in my signature).
--Peggie
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01-02-2020, 11:34 PM
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#25
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Guru
City: Sarasota,FL/Thomasville,GA
Vessel Name: Steppin Stone IV
Vessel Model: Marine Trader Kelly Trawler 46
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadMistress
A standby or short term fix we found years ago ( when our vent was plugged) was to take a small copper pipe bend it in a L and put it into the side of the hole you empty the tank and use the rubber fitting not the screw in type but caution stay away from the copper pipe end because it will burp
I can't visualize what you're describing. Hopefully it doesn't vent the tank inside the boat because that would violate USCG regs. They require that all waste tanks--sewage and gray water--be vented to the outside of the boat, even just short term.
years ago my wife found Peggy's book and bought us one since we have bought them for others.
Thank you very much for that! However, a lot of changes in marine toilet and other sanitation equipment technology occurred between 2003 when I wrote the first one and 2016 when the current edition was published. In fact, about the only things that hadn't changed were the laws of physics! So if you still have the first one, you might want to consider replacing it with the updated version (see link in my signature).
--Peggie
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Wish I was at the boat so I could show you. all this is done on the outside of the boat and only a temp fix yet a good one. So most Marinas have a suction fitting that is rubber not a screw in it is manually pressed in place while emptying the tank. TO vent during this if the vent is plugged take a small tube with a 90 degree bend in it place it under the rubber vacuum fitting yet next to the boat fitting
__________________
Alan
Skype roatan63
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01-05-2020, 10:54 AM
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#26
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Senior Member
City: Corpus Christi
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: 1990 Californian/Carver 48 MY
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 245
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Another day on the holding tank work. I'll give the vent tube with pump out line a try. Just some other things to note.
The vacufluch was not original to the boat, not sure when it was added. I've found some capped off lines that appear to be the original line from the head to the tank. I'm guessing they cut that line and spliced in the vacuum generator vacuflush systems. The had to reroute that line to under the 3rd bedroom bunk and put the vacuum generator that.
Question is it possible that 2 heads are connected to one vacuum generator, that is then connected to the tank?
I'm starting to document all lines I can find from the 3 heads.
Fun times!
Then Brockerts
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01-05-2020, 12:39 PM
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#27
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TF Site Team
City: Seneca Lake NY
Vessel Name: Bacchus
Vessel Model: MS 34 HT Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 7,826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siestakey
Wish I was at the boat so I could show you. all this is done on the outside of the boat and only a temp fix yet a good one. So most Marinas have a suction fitting that is rubber not a screw in it is manually pressed in place while emptying the tank. TO vent during this if the vent is plugged take a small tube with a 90 degree bend in it place it under the rubber vacuum fitting yet next to the boat fitting
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Alan
I think I'm misunderstanding your suggestion.
Wouldn't adding a tube along side the rubber pumpout ftg ajust allow air to bleed into the marina pumpout line instead of filling the holding tank as waste is removed??
Or are you pushing a looong tube down into / below the liquid waste level in the tank?
Don
__________________
Don
2008 MS 34 HT Trawler
"Bacchus"
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01-05-2020, 02:53 PM
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#28
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Guru
City: AR
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,515
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I'm not getting it either, Don. Anything inserted into the pumpout fitting alongside the pumpout nozzle would prevent the nozzle from sealing (the reason why there's never a chain on pumpout caps), and a good tight seal is necessary. But whatever he's doing doesn't seem to be interfering with pumpout. Alan can't get a photograph till he's back on the boat, but maybe he could post a drawing?
--Peggie
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01-05-2020, 03:21 PM
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#29
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,185
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Even if you could get a seal, wouldn’t the tube need to go down to the holding tank so it could get air into the tank in order to not collapse the tank?
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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01-05-2020, 03:54 PM
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#30
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Senior Member
City: Corpus Christi
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: 1990 Californian/Carver 48 MY
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 245
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I worked several lines down the pump out line, got good seals but still nothing and you could feel the free end outside the pump line drawing air. Your all correct. It didn't put any air into the the tank, just the line.
I've been tracking lines all day. I have 2 heads with a "Y" fitting right before the the vacuum generator. The forward and mid heads are running off the same vacuum generator. I've traced the output of the vacuum generator into the unknown area's of the boat. I've found everything except holding tanks...grrrr
Heading deeper
The Brockerts
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01-05-2020, 03:56 PM
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#31
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,185
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Just remember a reciprocating saw is your friend...
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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01-05-2020, 04:53 PM
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#32
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Guru
City: AR
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comodave
Even if you could get a seal, wouldn’t the tube need to go down to the holding tank so it could get air into the tank in order to not collapse the tank?
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Yes. But it couldn't be IN the pumpout hose--it would be full of waste, which would clog the tube. So it would have to lie alongside it and somehow penetrate the top of the tank or the vent fitting on the tank, or...damned if I can figure out how it could possibly work without interfering with the seal. So I strongly suspect that it does, but the pumpout still might be able to pump out at least some of the contents given enough time. Kinda like sucking the last of a milkshake out of a cup with a straw...a lot of noisy slurping, but you can finally get most of it.
--Peggie
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01-05-2020, 05:29 PM
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#33
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Senior Member
City: Corpus Christi
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: 1990 Californian/Carver 48 MY
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 245
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After tearing the boat apart and not finding a holding tank or two I started looking closely at all the labels on each tank, and I found this. Note the diesel and gasoline words scratched out. With a little more cutting I should be able to get to the fittings.
The Brockerts
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01-05-2020, 07:24 PM
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#34
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Guru
City: AR
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,515
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Two questions: The name of the mfr? I can't quite make it out. What's the tank material?
--Peggie
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01-05-2020, 07:36 PM
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#35
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Senior Member
City: Corpus Christi
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: 1990 Californian/Carver 48 MY
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 245
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Skyline Tanks INC. Alum 5052 .125" Thick I have found 2 of them, one on port side for Mid and forward head, that are both on the same vacuum generator, and one for the Master head on starboard side. Have not found everything for the master head yet.
The Brockerts
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01-05-2020, 09:52 PM
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#36
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,185
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I hope that your holding tank isn’t aluminum. Aluminum doesn’t last too long as a holding tank.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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01-06-2020, 09:15 AM
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#37
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Senior Member
City: Corpus Christi
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: 1990 Californian/Carver 48 MY
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 245
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Now that I have access to the top of the tank I can see the "full sensor" plate. If I remove that and look into the tank and check things out how would I reseal that sensor plate, 4200? 5200? or just some good quality silicone?
The Brockerts
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01-06-2020, 09:56 AM
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#38
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Senior Member
City: Solomons MD.
Vessel Name: Sun Runner
Vessel Model: 1985 Mainship 34 Trawler MK III
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Brockerts
Now that I have access to the top of the tank I can see the "full sensor" plate. If I remove that and look into the tank and check things out how would I reseal that sensor plate, 4200? 5200? or just some good quality silicone?
The Brockerts
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I'd be very careful removing anything on the top of the tank if it's full.... The level may be above the top of the tank....
Maybe cut the vent line up as high as you can then/when doing a pumpout. Have a straight connector and a couple hose clamps to fit ready.
Usually any fitting on the tank will have some type of gasket. Most any gasket sealer will work at least until you can make another gasket.
I would not use 5200 or anything that would seal permanently.
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01-06-2020, 10:23 AM
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#39
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,185
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What is the sensor plate made out of? I would go with a non permanent caulk like Sika 291. But Peggie probably is the person to ask. I wouldn’t use 5200 for sure. Some day you may need to remove it again. BTW, I would have an old shop vac at the ready. Also dump the shop vac and clean it out before in case you have to vacuum up some stuff it won’t be mixed with a bunch of stuff in the vac already. Good luck, better you than me...
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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01-07-2020, 09:48 AM
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#40
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Guru
City: AR
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,515
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Don't use any sealant. Instead use a rubber gasket to seal the flange--which should have been secured with about 6 small screws--and a rubber o-ring to seal the cap. Gaskets and o-rings are available from Beckson and other inspection port mfrs. Rubber dries out and cracks over time, so gaskets and o-rings should be replaced about every 5-6 years.
However, you have much bigger problem: aluminum holding tanks.
In the 1980s when holding tanks began to be required on boats, aluminum and steel were the materials of choice because they were less expensive and easier to cut and weld in odd shapes than rotationally molded polyethylene. But although you’ll still find aluminum or stainless holding tanks on some boats, by the early 1990s, it had become apparent that any metal is a very bad choice for sewage holding because urine is one of the most corrosive materials it’s possible to put next to any metal. While the sheet metal walls of a metal holding tank may last up to a decade (rarely any longer once it’s actually put in use to hold sewage), metal waste tanks, even 316 stainless steel, will typically begin to leak at a seam or a fitting within two to five years. You may be able to repair it, but the first leak is always just the first leak; the bottom of the tank is gradually turning into a colander. Stainless steel will last a little longer than aluminum, but even the best 316 stainless holding tank rarely lasts more than 10 years no matter how diligent you are about pumping out and thoroughly rinsing out the tank every time you use the boat, never allowing waste to sit in it. Whether the toilet flushes with salt or fresh water makes no difference.
Some mfrs coated the insides of aluminum waste with epoxy, which extends its life a bit, but your photo makes it kinda obvious that it was made to hold fuel and re-purposed to hold waste, so it's unlikely that it was. The tank may have been mfr'd in '88, but had to have been repurposed a lot later than that or it would have turned into a colander long before now.
So you're living on borrowed time before this tank begins to leak, maybe both tanks...we don't know yet what the other one is made of. You'd be wise to replace it with a top quality polyethylene tank before it does.
Ronco Plastics (no relation to the VegoMatic Ronco) Ronco Plastics marine Tanks is your best source. They make TOP quality thick-walled water and waste tanks for a very reasonable price and have more than 400 shapes and sizes, over 100 of which are non-rectangular, and they install fittings in the sizes and locations specified by the customer when they make the tank.
The only good news is, this can give you an opportunity to find a much more accessible location for the tank. In fact, if the drawing that you posted is an accurate depiction of your entire system, the plumbing is a mess! I'd pull the whole thing out and have it AND new tanks reinstalled correctly by someone who knows how to do it.
-Peggie
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