Getting ready to survey a 1990 Californian MY w/425hp

[The Brockerts]

Getting ready to survey a 1990 Californian MY w/425hp and is there any weak points that I should know about and check out? This boat has spent it's life on fresh water and I'll be moving it to the gulf coast of Texas and will be running it in the GICW area for the next few years.

The Brockerts

 

[Comodave]

While I don’t have any specific knowledge on that particular boat, I just wanted to say that I hope it goes well. When you close on it we will need photos of course. Good luck.

 

[sunchaser]

Guessing it has 425 HP Cat 3208s, things that need checking will require a well rounded Cat mechanic. Hopefully the vessel is propped correctly.

Up to date service records would be a plus. In advance, go through the boat diesel.com archives for background on the 30 year old engines. Absent recent servicing (more tha oil and filters) I'd guess you'll be spending $5-7K per engine to get them current.

 

[The Brockerts]

Yes correct Cat 3208's, should have mentioned that. Some maintenance records for the last couple of years but nothing back farther than that. The engines have 1600 hours on them and I can't find evidence of the 1000 hours Cat recommended maintenance being done. Great tip on diesel . com archive,

The Brockerts

 

[rgano]

Are you up on the few things to ensure are correct for the **** to SW like engine and running gear anodes?

 

[wrm95]

I have a 91' Californian MY (3 stateroom). 425 Cats with similar hours. Can't enough good things about the 3208 Cats. 3rd time for me. Keep your zincs up to date and oil changed on a regular basis.

 

[Oldersalt]

I recently bought a 30-year old boat with very incomplete maintenance records. I bought a replacement kit comprised of all the hoses for that engine, then paid the mechanic to do a standard annual service plus replacement of all hoses (kept the old ones for emergency spares). He also spotted a couple of potential problems, like improper alternator mounting, and fixed those too. Cheap insurance, I figure....
But remember these famous words..."Everything on your boat is broken. You just don't know it yet."
Good luck and enjoy the new boat!
Oldersalt

 

[The Brockerts]

wrm95,
Thanks for the positive comments. I've read a lot of negative things about the 3208 425hp as have issues with heat and the like. All saying the 3208 375hp were a much better engine. I feel that this boat being on freshwater all it's life, being used about 5-6 months each year on lake Texoma(Dallas Texas area) should have been an easy on some things. There is virtually no rust anywhere.
I plan on doing a service before putting it in salt water, zinc's, new paint, flush all fluids, changes hoses, start a good maintenance program, before heading out with it.

The Brockerts

 

[sunchaser]

wrm95,
Thanks for the positive comments. I've read a lot of negative things about the 3208 425hp as have issues with heat and the like. All saying the 3208 375hp were a much better engine. I feel that this boat being on freshwater all it's life, being used about 5-6 months each year on lake Texoma(Dallas Texas area) should have been an easy on some things. There is virtually no rust anywhere.
I plan on doing a service before putting it in salt water, zinc's, new paint, flush all fluids, changes hoses, start a good maintenance program, before heading out with it.

The Brockerts

You may want to get after coolers cleaned out and have a really good look inside turbos. Head gaskets can be troublesome as the 3208s age, quite common to replace once into the age of your potential purchase.

I've always liked the Californians in the size you are getting. Lots of room to work around engines and other mechanicals. Is it a pre Carver model?

 

[tiltrider1]

425 hp. Was just too much for the Cat 3208. If the PO liked to run at WOT then you have concerns. If the PO ran the boat at 1800 rpms making a mere 125 hp per engine, there are no concerns. If you don’t know how the PO used the engines then start with an oil analyst.

 

[The Brockerts]

Yes, that was a pre carver made Sept 1990. The PO tells me he generally ran around 1800 rpm out to the islands in the lake, about a mile out, dropped anchor in 10 feet of water, cranked up the $12,000 stereo system and went went swimming with all his friends.

The Brockert

 

[Comodave]

With the boat being on the lake, I would suspect that it has not been run hard for very long. More likely the PO is being truthful with minimal running.

 

[Tellico Bob]

Interesting. I have a 1986 48ft MY and I believe 1986 was the last year Marshall owned the company. Everything after that was built by Carver I believe. 375HP 3208 were very popular. Mine was over propped and I had to take 2" out of the pitch. I have cruised over a 1000 miles since 2014 and have had no problems at all. Did discover that the dip sticks were marked wrong and was using a quart of oil per engine every 8 hours. Since I made the corrections I have cruised 400 miles without adding any oil. LOL

 

[The Brockerts]

I believe it's a pre Carver. Built Sept 1990 there are no Carver markings on the boat. On other 1990's I've surveyed they had a Carver logo and a Californian logo mounted on the side. Maybe this Sept boat the Carver logo was removed? I'm not sure, I'm just calling it a Californian based on no Carver markings like other ones. The only Carver markings are the new captain chairs this Owner installed in the last 2 years. He calls it a Californian. Some day, someone will publish all the HID's and who and where there were made? Maybe this list is already out there?

The Brockerts

 

[The Brockerts]

How would I know if it's over propped? Being a sailor "props" were never my thing. I'll pay attention to the dip sticks too now.

The Brockerts

 

[FlyWright]

I believe it's a pre Carver. Built Sept 1990 there are no Carver markings on the boat. On other 1990's I've surveyed they had a Carver logo and a Californian logo mounted on the side. Maybe this Sept boat the Carver logo was removed? I'm not sure, I'm just calling it a Californian based on no Carver markings like other ones. The only Carver markings are the new captain chairs this Owner installed in the last 2 years. He calls it a Californian. Some day, someone will publish all the HID's and who and where there were made? Maybe this list is already out there?

The Brockerts

About 8-10 years ago I had a phone conversation with Gil Marshall while his Dad, Jule, was listening in on the speakerphone. Gil was a 15 yr old bilge rat in his Dad's Marshall Boat Co back in 1977 when mine was built. He told me that all the paper records for the HINs were shipped to Carver and Wellcraft through the various company sales and never made it back to the Marshalls when they bought the Californian name back in later years. He said they were all lost in the process.

One point he made clearly was that all HINs starting in 'JCM' mean the boat was built by Jule Marshall in California. The numbering sequence after that was changed through the years with letters in the middle of the sequence sometimes being used to denote the year of construction.

 

[Comodave]

How would I know if it's over propped? Being a sailor "props" were never my thing. I'll pay attention to the dip sticks too now.

The Brockerts

Will it make the rated RPM at full throttle with your normal load aboard the boat? If not it may be overpropped. It also could be a dirty bottom or running gear. Also it could be the tach not really accurate.

 

[The Brockerts]

A complete bust, didn't even finish the survey. I just walked on this survey 1/3 of the way through.
Broker rate boat "stone cold 10"

In someways I feel like a fool !

In my pre-visit survey I need to stop being such a nice guy with the owners and brokers. I need to open every hatch, door, test A/C's, test appliances etc. before I schedule a survey.

Am I wrong to do this ?



Why I walked,



- 3 New A/C's installed, installation records....but only one worked !

- Mid-aft fuel tank not used, Ok I'll check it out.....only to find it was under water. Yes underwater. Mid bilge filled with water to within inches of the floor.
- FYI, this fuel tank is under the 3rd bunk and floor, starts at the end of the master bed and runs toward the front of the boat. It's under the closet where the washer and dryers seems to be installed on these boats.
- Could not locate the 2 of the 3 bathroom sump pumps...given the water in the bilges it probably just drained there.

- water system had so many leaks we could not keep the water pressure pump on

- 3 new bilge pumps, installation records provided....none worked



I could go on for hours...
Oh yea...the FBI will be looking at us as we keep sending $12,000-15,000 to broker all over the country, and then getting it wired back.....LOL



On to the next one, flying in for a pre-survery on Tuesday morning, I'll let you know how it goes




The Brockerts

 

[Comodave]

Sorry it went badly. When I buy a boat, I spend at least a day on it by myself, poking around and looking at everything. I make a list of questions and questionable things and have it ready for the surveyor. You may not catch everything but you will catch a lot and know if you should proceed to a survey. Good luck next time.

 

[tiltrider1]

Sounds like you are making good decisions.

 

[FlyWright]

Sorry it was such a floating disaster but sure glad it's not your floating disaster.

The right one's out there...

 

[Airstream345]

If possible try seeing the same boat twice before making an offer. The first visit is to get a feel for the boat; does it check all the boxes, do you like the layout, looks, upgrades, fit and finish, general condition. This is the fun visit.

Then sleep on it and if you still love it see it again.

The second visit should take 60-90 minutes and is your pre-inspection. Every locker, floor hatch, drawer, compartment etc is gone over with a fine tooth comb. Bring a flashlight and binoculars (to inspect masts, radar arrays, etc).

If possible bring your knowledgeable boating friends who aren’t in love with this boat. They will find everything wrong and everything right. Then ask them what they think.

Yes it’s short of an operational test for things like operational bildge pumps but if there’s two feet of water over three pumps you know something is seriously wrong before writing a check to the surveyors.

Good luck with your search. You’ll find it. Just takes work.

 

[Pau Hana]

A complete bust, didn't even finish the survey. I just walked on this survey 1/3 of the way through.
Broker rate boat "stone cold 10"

In someways I feel like a fool !

In my pre-visit survey I need to stop being such a nice guy with the owners and brokers. I need to open every hatch, door, test A/C's, test appliances etc. before I schedule a survey.

Am I wrong to do this ?



Why I walked,



- 3 New A/C's installed, installation records....but only one worked !

- Mid-aft fuel tank not used, Ok I'll check it out.....only to find it was under water. Yes underwater. Mid bilge filled with water to within inches of the floor.
- FYI, this fuel tank is under the 3rd bunk and floor, starts at the end of the master bed and runs toward the front of the boat. It's under the closet where the washer and dryers seems to be installed on these boats.
- Could not locate the 2 of the 3 bathroom sump pumps...given the water in the bilges it probably just drained there.

- water system had so many leaks we could not keep the water pressure pump on

- 3 new bilge pumps, installation records provided....none worked



I could go on for hours...
Oh yea...the FBI will be looking at us as we keep sending $12,000-15,000 to broker all over the country, and then getting it wired back.....LOL



On to the next one, flying in for a pre-survery on Tuesday morning, I'll let you know how it goes




The Brockerts

Good call. I read far too many surveys from owners that got too emotionally involved in the vessel purchase, and now they have to face the ugly reality of taking the rose colored glasses off.

I've have to decline to offer insurance coverage on many due to poor material condition, and place others on Port Risk Ashore until the survey recs were completed- and then require a survey reattend be completed prior to allowing navigation.

 

[ghost]

The biggest value from a surveyor is the potential for a independent objective opinion.

I’ve always gotten surveys from highly qualified individuals. There is rarely a system on somebody else’s boat that I could not self survey, but the one thing I could never do is form an objective opinion of a boat I’m infatuated with. In fact, it’s worse if you know something, because all you do is sit there going “that could be repaired” while not keeping mental math as the deficiencies add up.

 

[bshillam]

Walking,

I just went through this process too. It's better to walk when there is major work ahead and the price doesn't reflect that. I was looking at a nearly $200k boat and it had damage to the roof which would have cost about $10k to fix. The price certainly didn't reflect that. Too many people don't take care of their boats like they are worth what they command.

It's always cheaper to buy something taken care of than one that needs work. It's always going to cost time and money and probably more than initially thought.

 

[BruceK]

If one boat I`m looking ever got to a price deal I`d want a provision that, if it comes up with blisters,seller pays for haulout and survey fees if I decide to walk. That would soon sort out whether it has blisters, or not.
I don`t fall in love with boats anymore. As with many things, some times the best assessment is yours. What if the surveyor misses something,as he can. Sure you might have a claim against the surveyor, but it could be by then you already bought the boat.
I also like a provision that the boat must be fully insurable by XYZ Ins Corp at standard no extra loading rates.

 

[The Brockerts]

Yep, never fall in love with any boat until I've purchased it. The insurance question that I ask the broker in the first call is. "Can the boat be fully insurable at standard rate as it's floating right now". All brokers say yes, and not one of them can be. Yes Surveyors miss somethings but I do it with them as 4 eyes are better than than 2. Then add the Admirals eyes and you basically have 10 eyes.

And the Question a surveyor has yet to answer fully is.

"When I unplug from shore power where will the bonding(netural&ground) happen when the generator or inverter starts and can we find and test that relay or component?"

The Brockerts

 

[stevemitchell]

Good call. I read far too many surveys from owners that got too emotionally involved in the vessel purchase, and now they have to face the ugly reality of taking the rose colored glasses off.

- exactly! I've fallen in love with my share of boats/cars/houses (and people for that matter!) only to find there was something horribly wrong with them. Human nature is to try to figure out a way for everything to work out.

Being able to separate yourself from that is a good thing, and I'm glad you were able to do that!

 

[Moon]

I own a 52' Californian which I purchased and re-powered in 2002. I love my Californian and would like to give you some insight on these great boats. I'll be replacing her soon because I found another trawler I want. I have crawled through every space I can and replaced heads, holding tank, water heater, etc., too much to remember. I'm still amazed by the things I find when I am working on something. I also know a broker who once specialized in them. He has lots of info on Californians. Don't be discouraged! Steve M.

 

[FlyWright]

I also know a broker who once specialized in them. He has lots of info on Californians. Don't be discouraged! Steve M.

Steve,

Can you share the broker's name or the Californian Info he has available? Lots of other Californian owners here on TF would love to see it.

Thanks!