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Old 01-03-2022, 10:20 PM   #1
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Are people over the Lithium fire risk?

We went end to end Victron Lithium (480 a/h) on our 89 Californian 48 CPMY last year and have absolutely loved it. Soon she will be on the market in Anacortes and I suddenly realized some may think LifePo lithiums are still a fire risk - and steer clear of the boat.

Have people gotten over this by now realizing LifePo is not the early generation lithium… or will most not even realize what they are looking at?
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Old 01-04-2022, 05:20 AM   #2
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Like many things...I suppose it depends on the level of familiarity with the issue.


With huge recalls right now in the electric/hybrid cars over possible fire...one can't blame the less familiar if you don't include how your batteries and/or system is different.
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Old 01-04-2022, 05:58 AM   #3
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I now understand that there is no significant fire risk having been educated by several others in another thread. However, for the short-term owner (10 years or fewer, at least) lithium is not cost effective versus flooded lead acid batteries. There are other good reasons to adopt lithium but cost savings, in most, not all, use cases is not one. The more likely to benefit is the next owner.
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Old 01-04-2022, 06:08 AM   #4
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Like many electrical modifications....even traditional electrical methods are substandard if done by some owners.


If the buyer isn't up on the tech stuff... I think it could be an issue when selling.


The USCG just released passenger vessel interim rulings on fire and electrical safety (on rechargeable batteries) concerning the dive boat fire...that in the news, even though no application to anyone's particular boat may still affect the less informed boating public. Especially with so many buyers these days being really new to boating in general.
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Old 01-04-2022, 06:19 AM   #5
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I would guess it's like a short production engine in a boat. A number of manufacturers have had production years where the engine proved unpopular or was discontinued by the engine manufacturer. Sometimes it makes selling a near model year boat with the same engine manufacturer (different model) tougher because of the confusion between the models.

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Old 01-04-2022, 07:59 AM   #6
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Probably depends on your buyer. We are under 50, still active in a technology driven workforce, and follow renewable energy solutions pretty closely.


I would see your setup as a positive. A bonus, even. It would make your boat more attractive to me. However, like with cars, the upgrade will not mean higher sell price.



This market is not rewarding old boats (20+yrs) and I don't imagine it getting better soon. Your modern battery setup might help tho. Especially with the younger and hungrier crowd.



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Old 01-04-2022, 09:03 AM   #7
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When lithium batteries were first proposed for boats on this forum a few years back, I was aghast. Now I understand that the LiFePO4 batteries have essentially no fire risk.

I think I would carefully word your listing to emphasize the advantages and note that LiFePO4 batteries have no risk of internally generated fires. Or maybe keep your mouth shut about fire risk and hope for the best.

OTOH, I do believe that the advantages of Lithium batteries- light weight, higher power density, quick charging, no maintenance are mostly lost on boats. If I were comparing a boat with 200 Ahs of Li batteries to one with 4-220 Ah 6V golf cart batteries, I would consider it a wash, and even prefer the GCs if the Li boat didn't have a Li specific charger/alternator.

But it is what it is of course.

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Old 01-04-2022, 10:07 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
I would guess it's like a short production engine in a boat. A number of manufacturers have had production years where the engine proved unpopular or was discontinued by the engine manufacturer. Sometimes it makes selling a near model year boat with the same engine manufacturer (different model) tougher because of the confusion between the models.

Ted
Yeah, but it's a lot cheaper and easier to replace a battery pack than it is to swap engines. I'd view this as no different than the upholstery color or choice of electronics. If a buyer has a strong preference they should be prepared to make some changes once the boat is theirs. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it as a seller.

I agree that there are lots of owner mods that turn people away, but if properly done I'd present this setup as a positive rather than a negative. Not everyone will agree, but that's their problem, not yours.
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Old 01-04-2022, 10:38 AM   #9
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TLDR; We are all taking the Li risk anyway, so getting the significant advantages a full boat system is all bonus.


It strikes me odd to be hung up on Li batteries in any scenario given how prevalent they are across modern life. Unless you are a luddite cave troll, in which case you are not reading this anyway, you are saturated with Li risk on both dirt and water.


Every phone, drone, camera, tablet, or laptop have it. Add to it the other stuff like flashlights, mice, lights, cordless tools, ad-naseum... Any one of them can set a boat ablaze. I bet not an insignificant number of us have cordless tools on a boat somewhere close to flammable oils and don't think anything about it. One chinesium battery away from full-tilt dino-fueled meltdown.



Someone hung up on the Li in your boat are likely looking for a reason not to buy the boat regardless of the electrical system. Ironically, they'll take the small Li bomb out of their pocket to look up the fire risk while explaining why they need $20k off the price. Then go get in a hybrid vehicle to find the next owner to low-ball.


This is all very "tongue in cheek." So don't get too serious.


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Old 01-04-2022, 10:44 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
...

The USCG just released passenger vessel interim rulings on fire and electrical safety (on rechargeable batteries) concerning the dive boat fire.....
On that one; I have a steel "broiler pan", i've been using in the dive shed to sit the Li - ion cells on; for dive lights. That pan will now reside on the boat for charging Li - ion; tablets, phones, lights, fans, etc. You are really in trust mode not placing Li - ion on a fireproof surface.
Also, check out the sailboat loss in the DR, blamed but not proven to be a single Li - ion cell.
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Old 01-04-2022, 10:49 AM   #11
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I guess some people get hung up that LI batteries are considered dangerous cargo and start fires in all kinds of devices.


I get it that there are safer Li batteries and incidents are often rare.... but if you have no interest in Li battery setups on a boat (especially a large trawler where space and weight isn't an issue and weight can be a good thing), probably like me, many don't keep up with the benefits and dangers. So yes if a boat had the system, and I didn't know that a highly certified person installed it....I might want that or equivalent assurance prior to purchase.
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Old 01-04-2022, 10:52 AM   #12
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On that one; I have a steel "broiler pan", i've been using in the dive shed to sit the Li - ion cells on; for dive lights. That pan will now reside on the boat for charging Li - ion; tablets, phones, lights, fans, etc. You are really in trust mode not placing Li - ion on a fireproof surface.
Also, check out the sailboat loss in the DR, blamed but not proven to be a single Li - ion cell.

My Samsung tablet melted its charging port and plug into it and charred my leather cover a few years back when I was ashore visiting friends. Sure things have changed...but occurrences are still happening out there.


I know it's not boat type batteries and I am not saying they aren't perfectly safe...just explaining why some buyers might still have a twinge of fear without assurances.
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Old 01-04-2022, 10:58 AM   #13
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Around 2006, I was in the position of rolling out 55k infantry radios to the USMC. Each has a pack with a few Li - ion cells imbedded. It was the USN that had heartburn with that one. I got hold of one torpedo pix that lit off inside, not pretty. I also learned what marine, really stands for.
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Old 01-04-2022, 11:01 AM   #14
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If the buyer is unknowledgeable about batteries, he/she may not care, or will depend on a surveyor's (or worse yet a broker's) opinion. I'd make sure that your broker recommends a surveyor knowledgable about LFP battery installations.

If the buyer is knowledgable they will see it as a plus. A well done Victron LFP installation is substantially less of a fire risk than the LA they replaced.
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Old 01-04-2022, 11:14 AM   #15
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Besides the LifePo4 chemistry, the BMS responds to temperature readings. Most have a high temp shutoff and some have a low temp shutoff. This provides some degree of fire safety as long as the components are good and last as long as the cells do.
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Old 01-04-2022, 11:18 AM   #16
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I think these are the single most important improvement made:



of course, these are not chemistry related.
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Old 01-04-2022, 11:33 AM   #17
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It strikes me odd to be hung up on Li batteries in any scenario given how prevalent they are across modern life. Unless you are a luddite cave troll, in which case you are not reading this anyway, you are saturated with Li risk on both dirt and water.


Every phone, drone, camera, tablet, or laptop have it. Add to it the other stuff like flashlights, mice, lights, cordless tools, ad-naseum... Any one of them can set a boat ablaze. I bet not an insignificant number of us have cordless tools on a boat somewhere close to flammable oils and don't think anything about it. One chinesium battery away from full-tilt dino-fueled meltdown.
I think your argument lacks the size factor. We're all are use to a lithium battery in a cell phone. How many thousands of times larger is a boat house battery bank. I'm comfortable with a 20 pound propane tank on my upper deck (where a leak doesn't end up inside the hull) for my gas grill. Not interested in two 300 gallon propane tanks inside my hull to replace my diesel tanks.

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Old 01-04-2022, 12:00 PM   #18
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If the buyer is unknowledgeable about batteries, he/she may not care, or will depend on a surveyor's (or worse yet a broker's) opinion. I'd make sure that your broker recommends a surveyor knowledgable about LFP battery installations.

If the buyer is knowledgable they will see it as a plus. A well done Victron LFP installation is substantially less of a fire risk than the LA they replaced.

From the NFPA



https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/N...cidBattery.pdf



This is a result of the lithium ion batteries having a greater energy density, efficiency, and lifespan as
compared to lead acid battery chemistries. These batteries, however, are capable of storing large
amounts of energy and often utilize a volatile or combustible electrolyte and thus are prone to fires and
explosions. As a result, significant testing has been conducted to identify the fire hazards assoc iated
with lithium ion batteries. However, little testing has been performed on the lead acid battery
chemistries. Thus, in this work, fire hazards associated with lead acid batteries are identified both from
a review of incidents involving them and from avaulable fire test information. From this, it is
determined that lead acid batteries present low fire risks.


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Old 01-04-2022, 12:09 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
From the NFPA



https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/N...cidBattery.pdf



This is a result of the lithium ion batteries having a greater energy density, efficiency, and lifespan as
compared to lead acid battery chemistries. These batteries, however, are capable of storing large
amounts of energy and often utilize a volatile or combustible electrolyte and thus are prone to fires and
explosions. As a result, significant testing has been conducted to identify the fire hazards assoc iated
with lithium ion batteries. However, little testing has been performed on the lead acid battery
chemistries. Thus, in this work, fire hazards associated with lead acid batteries are identified both from
a review of incidents involving them and from avaulable fire test information. From this, it is
determined that lead acid batteries present low fire risks.



I agree that lead acid batteries aren't a big fire risk. But the lithium boat batteries in question aren't Lithium Ion. They're Lithium Iron Phosphate (less energy dense and much safer).
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Old 01-04-2022, 12:24 PM   #20
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Having just put my boat up for sale, and having an extensive LiFePO4 bank, I can say there are still some percentage of folks who remain uninterested in owning a boat with that type of battery chemistry. I think it could be considered a similar decision point for someone as the brand of engine or something else similar.

This is the third boat that I've installed LiFePO4 on, and the next one will have it too. I've also designed and installed hundreds of systems for other boats. If done properly, there is little more/less risk than any other type of power system. They all have their pros/cons and risks.
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