Proposal for Off-the-deep-end forum

[Rebel112r]

OTDE.. It is great entertainment.. You only go there on purpose, hard to get there accidentally.

[Bigsfish]

Never been there, never had a desire to go there. At the Ft Pierce gathering Larry mentioned it to me but it didn’t sound like a good place to be. I don’t go to BookFace either as I don’t like social media and what people can find out about you. I read four papers a day and get all the nastyness I need.

[FlyWright]

Originally Posted by O C Diver

Think I will remain ignorant of its virtues.

Ted

It has no virtues, Ted.

[angus99]

I agree with twistedtree, bandb and others who believe hate speech, threats and savaging people who don’t agree with you have no place on any boating forum, no matter how far you have to drill down for it. It’s irrelevant that you have to sign in or go looking for OTDE content; TF shouldn’t be providing a platform for it. There are plenty of online rocks out there to look under for folks who need to be entertained by watching people dehumanize one another.

[FlyWright]

In this case, freedom of speech is unusually painful due to the false courage to speak freely provided by:

1. the blind anonymity of forum posting (and the false courage it fosters)
2. who knows what drug/alcohol influence (and the false wisdom it fosters)
3. social peccadilloes (and the false persona it fosters).
4. and a private platform that allows it.

IMO, it speaks volumes about the poster. It also speaks volumes about the platform.

THEN, there's the other side of TF. Those are the folks you'll meet at TF gatherings. They're real and they're real nice. I've met many and all, with the exception of one or two, are folks I'd be proud to call my friend. That's the way we like here. That's the way we roll on TF.

Sometimes it's better to never look into the sewer. But, when it comes right down to it, it would be much uglier if you don't have the sewer pipe at all...and there'd be no avoiding it.

Cheers to real TFers.












PS. OK, be honest...how many tried to click the underlined "real TFers" to see if you made the list?

[Bacchus]

Originally Posted by twistedtree

I'd like to make a proposal for OTDE. I propose that it be closed to the creation of new threads, and that the only way a thread gets there is if it gets out of hand elsewhere on TF, and needs to be sent to the back room.


TF is about trawlers and trawlering, not about spew on whatever topics someone wants to spew about. The creation of a new thread in OTDE, is by definition counter to everything that TF represents, encourages, and allows. So why does it exist at all? Well, sometimes well intentioned threads get out of hand and the conversation needs to be taken elsewhere, so it gets moved to OTDE. That seems fine.


But why on earth would we want to invite people to pro-actively start a discussion on TF that is inherently not allowed on TF? All it does is provide a venue for people who want to spew, or antagonize, or otherwise behave in a non-trawler-like manner. There are plenty of other places on the web for people to do that, so I think anyone with OTDE inclinations should simple go elsewhere. This is a trawlering forum.


So what do other think? And what is the position of the forum management?

The way I look at it is it keeps many otherwise unacceptable posts out of the mainstream. If it's not there I'll bet at least in the short term the mods will be busy moving threads - the OTDE posters won't go away easy or quietly IMO
Why move objectionable posts there? that encourages members with that bent to start a post elsewhere expecting it will be moved - If we don't want it then stop it all together and delete anything objectionable or questionable

To the last highlight - exactly - it provides an outlet for those inclined to vent, spew, etc.

Id be OK w/ doing away with it and tightening up on the rules but that means even the Humor thread has to go as it sometimes crosses the line... but makes many of us chuckle or even LOL.

[Bigsfish]

Al, I think you are laying the groundwork for more booze and food at Ft. Pierce this year.

[cardude01]

Well said Flyright!

[sunchaser]

TF is a business. Other boating websites have their version of OTDE. Doubtful the TF owners would want to lose the ad revenues that could potentially result from fewer hits.

The bigger thought as tossed out by Flywright and others seems to be ignore our local fruit cakes. Unfortunately though families get judged by their worst offspring. When seasoned boaters like Eric prefer Facebook combined with the paucity of experienced boating professionals regularly posting on TF, this site seems fitting with the times, frivolous for us generalists.

[Peter B]

Originally Posted by FlyWright

It has no virtues, Ted.

I suggest it does have one virtue, and one we have kept coming back to over the years, and I've been on here some ten years. And that is it is a place in which to sequester those who have a tendency to start and/or post to contentious threads, and a place to which threads that have become contentious can be diverted. I mention this point specifically because deletion or closing a thread often upsets some who were following it and participating - often trying to stick to the main point of debate in a reasonably responsible manner, and sometimes the subject had some merit, even if not boating orientated. After all, even though a shared love of boating draws us here, we are not one dimensional folk, are we? We do have views on other issues.

So, OTDE is really, in my view, a place which I suspect we would be forced to re-invent if abolished altogether, or to which we would be forced to divert more and more threads, if the suggestion made by the OP, (which I admit sounds excellent at first glance), was to be adopted.

I have posted this because although the first rule of moderation is that it is not discussed on open forum, this issue is really not such a discussion, but a serious suggestion re the structure and function of the forum. As such, I feel, as have some other fellow moderators, it does demand some response from those of us given the responsibility of day to day management, because of the implications of the suggestion from the OP.

[twistedtree]

A number have argued that OTDE is an outlet for unruly members. I argue it's a draw for them, and causes them to keep coming back.


Rather than give them an outlet, let's stick to the rules, discipline trouble makers, and show them the door if they can't behave in a manner consistent with TFs stated rules.


TF is nearly always a civilized place. If blocking the creation of new threads on OTDE generates a surge of misbehavior on TF, then I think we will have proven that we have some people who need to change their ways, or go. Let's deal with that problem, if it exists, and not hide sweep in under the rug in OTDE.



And just to reiterate, the proposal is NOT to eliminate OTDE. I do think there is value in having a place to move discussions that start to get out of hand, and let people still continue the debate. But the creation of a new thread on OPTDE is by definition counter to the behavior rules and values of TF, and the poster knows it. Otherwise they wouldn't have places it there. So exactly why do we allow these explicit and conscious violations of the rules? Why do we accept this behavior from our members for even one second?

[Al]

Originally Posted by ksanders

OTDE is easy to avoid.

Just don’t go there.

Yep, How is this suggestion any way different from the current efforts of FaceBook, YouTube, Twitter, all liberal owned, curtaling and in cases, eliminating any and all free speech (First Amendment) that they object too. I hear this suggestion as a objection to free speech specifically as you have stated. There are a myriads of
of objectionable subject sites, porn as an example. I don't do porn, I know it exist, I am disgusted with the described content. yet under the 1st. it is allowed.
I have and do participate on the OTDE. Having heavy disagreements with fellow trawler members on a myriad of political subjects. Would I advocate shutting down my opposition because I disagree or "Don't Like" his or there position? No and as such I view the maker of this suggestion a sort that deems himself in a superior position with a god given right to determine his personal feelings on others.

Al-Ketchikan

[twistedtree]

Originally Posted by Al

Yep, How is this suggestion any way different from the current efforts of FaceBook, YouTube, Twitter, all liberal owned, curtaling and in cases, eliminating any and all free speech (First Amendment) that they object too. I hear this suggestion as a objection to free speech specifically as you have stated. There are a myriads of
of objectionable subject sites, porn as an example. I don't do porn, I know it exist, I am disgusted with the described content. yet under the 1st. it is allowed.
I have and do participate on the OTDE. Having heavy disagreements with fellow trawler members on a myriad of political subjects. Would I advocate shutting down my opposition because I disagree or "Don't Like" his or there position? No and as such I view the maker of this suggestion a sort that deems himself in a superior position with a god given right to determine his personal feelings on others.

Al-Ketchikan

My proposal has nothing to do with any particular point of view or position, so not trying to "silence" any one position. And this isn't a 1st amendment issues. This is a privately run site with a variety of rules about content, behavior, etc. I'm suggesting we follow those rules. There are plenty of places where people can express whatever views they have on non-trawler topics. I'm suggesting that TF is not the place for the spew that originates on OTDE. Take it to a public street corner, write a book, write a blog, write letters to editors, buy space in newspapers, or express your non-trawler "stuff" through any of many different venues. And more importantly, if 90% of your TF participation is creating new posts on OTDE, you are in the wrong place.

[Scratchnsaw]

Originally Posted by Al

Yep, How is this suggestion any way different from the current efforts of FaceBook, YouTube, Twitter, all liberal owned, curtaling and in cases, eliminating any and all free speech (First Amendment) that they object too. I hear this suggestion as a objection to free speech specifically as you have stated. There are a myriads of
of objectionable subject sites, porn as an example. I don't do porn, I know it exist, I am disgusted with the described content. yet under the 1st. it is allowed.
I have and do participate on the OTDE. Having heavy disagreements with fellow trawler members on a myriad of political subjects. Would I advocate shutting down my opposition because I disagree or "Don't Like" his or there position? No and as such I view the maker of this suggestion a sort that deems himself in a superior position with a god given right to determine his personal feelings on others.

Al-Ketchikan

Well these outlets as with all other private ventures are not covered under the first. So the owners and operators can set the ground rules. We are guests that's passing thru on our way to the inevitable , to be replaced by probably another time wasting hunt and pecker on a keyboard.


Let me add that politics and religion has totally ruined the wooden boat forum. The ugly climate of personal animosity transferred from their bilge area to the numerous boat sections and those have all but withered on the vine for good running content. SO I have seen first hand what politics can do to destroy substantive content forums.

[FlyWright]

Originally Posted by Bigsfish

Al, I think you are laying the groundwork for more booze and food at Ft. Pierce this year.

The booze, beer and Watfa's food was top shelf! It'll keep me coming back.

All TFers I've met there were EXACTLY the same in person as I got from their online persona. Not one faker or wanna-be. It was a delight to meet so many great folks who I've conversed with for a long time. Some as long as 10 years.

Since I knew what many looked like, there were only two things that surprised me at FP; a person's height and voice. Looking forward to the next time.

[Northern Spy]

As I have the extreme right wing and the extreme left wing members on ignore, there isn't much content left in OTDE to view.

[Al]

Originally Posted by twistedtree

This is a privately run site with a variety of rules about content, behavior, etc. I'm suggesting we follow those rules. I'm suggesting that TF is not the place for the spew that originates on OTDE. Take it to a public street corner, write a book, write a blog, write letters to editors, buy space in newspapers, or express your non-trawler "stuff" through any of many different venues. And more importantly, if 90% of your TF participation is creating new posts on OTDE, you are in the wrong place.

Okay Twisted- Over the past exchanges and looking into the future, as two Trawler Forum members. We are not going to agree much.

Yes, it is a privately run site. The owners have provided a democratic venue that recognizes a need to have an option for subject/opinion arena that members (Visitors?)would feel comfortable in and not bother members wishing to be seperated or not exposed to the contain.

It will be interesting to see how the "Owners" now respond to your suggestion.
As those involve with the OTDE, including on occasion,myself, are active posters to the main menu's nautical subjects in acceptable content language it would seem a bit harsh to state without knowing, what percentage of our post are OTDE.

In the end, you are advocating Facebook,Twitter,and YouTube's actions be taken by the "Owners" of the Trawler Forum.

Be MHO that leaving well enough alone would be the rational decision.
I will close by recognizing your right to make your recommendation.
Under the 1st. it will not stand without challenge.

Regards,
Al
PS: Regardless the stance or our disagreement, were you to require any form of assistance it would be offered unequivocally.

[bnoft]

maybe this topic belongs in OTDE?

[OldDan1943]

I too have 'disassociated' myself from a few topic/forums. Usually it is because people keep adding 'what if' conditions. It starts out with a basic cut and dry question and then pile on 'conditions' making the entire subject too confusing to understand. They are subjects and answers that prevent one to draw a conclusion, interjected their own personal agenda, not personal experience.
I usually tell folks I am leaving the forum because of the "what if" or it become circular. I would like to believe I leave the forums before I become part of the problem but, I am human.

[danderer]

Originally Posted by Aquabelle

I agree with Twisted and B&B

Ditto.