Dinghy issue

[Baker]

I have been battling my dinghy ever since we started getting this crappy ass ethanol fuel.* I have recently got it running pretty well, but not great.* Now, it runs fine until I get it up on plane.* It runs perfectly while on plane and then I come off of plane and it will die within minutes of slowing down.* I can get it started again but it will take me a good 5 minutes.* The severity is lessened with each "run".* It bothers me but it bothers the missus even more.* SHe likes dinghy riding but she is not gonna go when the dinghy is questionable.....it hasn't ever stranded me but it is a pain in the butt to deal with.* Ideas????

 

[sunchaser]

How old is the outboard. 2 or 4 stroke? Have you tried any additives?

 

[Phuket]

Most likely you have some debris in the carby. *The ethanol is an effective solvent and will clean dirt from the tank and fuel lines, but this can then lodge in places restricting flow. *The worse option is that it has dissolved some rubber from your lines or some gaskets in the fuel system itself. *

I started using it in my 75 Yamaha two stroke when everything was still new but shortly afterwards I found big bits of the gasket sealant I had used on the tank cover coming through to the Racor filter, luckily nothing ever got past it. *Only once I had similar probelms to what you described and that was when I ran the tank all the way to the bottom. *After changing the filter, draining the carbs and flushing the lines it has run perfectly ever since. *


I now tend to mix about half and half gasohol and regular petrol. *You can still get both here but the gasohol is much cheaper and the engine runs fine on it. *I am most concerned about the potential of water combining with the ethanol and separating from the petrol.


Cheers, leon.

 

[Baker]

Leon, your seperation comment is really what it is all about. The ethanol causes the wate to fall out of suspension....among other things....



It is a 15hp 2 stroke old school motor.....

 

[FF]

"I am most concerned about the potential of water combining with the ethanol and separating from the petrol.'

So do what the OB racers do, mix the fuel and use it TODAY , not "next" week.

 

[troy994719]

You need to pull the carb off and give it a good soak in a cleaner, then blow it out with air. I would also get plugs,*a carb kit and replace all the seals, it should be less than $50 for that engine.

 

[Baker]

FF wrote:

"I am most concerned about the potential of water combining with the ethanol and separating from the petrol.'

So do what the OB racers do, mix the fuel and use it TODAY , not "next" week.

My solution would be to use avgas from now on.....

*

 

[timjet]

After every cruise I run my 3.5 hp merc dry of fuel so no bad stuff remains. I've never had a problem.

 

[Baker]

Tim, I do the same...

 

[Jim Spence]

Hey John, I had the exact same problem with my dink. I cleaned the carb (again) flushed all the water out of the gas tank mixed fresh fuel and added Sta-bil fuel stabilizer. I mixed the current tank of gas (6 gallons) in January it's now down to about 1/4 tank and still starts on the second pull if it hasn't been started in the last couple of weeks. Otherwise it starts on the 1st pull. My dink motor is a 15Hp Yamaha 2 stroke. The only thing I have noticed is it seems to smoke a little more when it is cold after warm up no smoke.

 

[koliver]

I bought a tankful of gas at a Mowhawk station (here in Vancouver they sell gas cut 10% or so with ethanol). It was the same price as gas that isn't cut with eth at other stations.
My mileage was degraded by about 25%.
Who in their right mind would legislate the use of that stuff?
Now you need to burn 133% as much to go the same distance. Take out the 10% eth and you burn 115% as much gas, so a net increase in the greenhouse gasses, to say you are being green!
That is without any of the issues you raise about parts dissolving into the fuel.

 

[FF]

"Now you need to burn 133% as much to go the same distance."

That's a 33% TAX INCREASE , great for the state treasury , and politicos as they never voted to increase taxes , just to "Save the Planet".

As the left/state controls education , most voters cant figure this out for themselves.

FF

 

[Keith]

Here's something interesting. I keep a spreadsheet with my gas mileage for my truck (QC background I guess!) I have the raw data and a running average of the last 20 data points. After hurricane Ike hit here in the Galveston Bay area, my gas mileage dropped significantly, maybe 15-20%. It stayed that way and slowly crept back up. I always wondered what they did to our gasoline, since we already have ethanol in it. Maybe more ethanol than usual? I know the refineries around here were all shut down for awhile, so we probably got gas from other refineries, maybe different forumulations? I wish I was still working in a petrochemical lab... I could just shoot some into the GC and figure it out!

 

[Nomad Willy]

I can concieve of a 1 to 2% loss in mileage but 15% ? Something must be wrong w your numbers. I just don't see how thats possible. Even if it's true this corn fuel thing is utter nonsence. And of course if it's true it's just corn crazy. Something just occurred to me** ..* what if ethanol changed density and fuel mixture. I think emission controled cars run at the ragged edge of leanness and if one were to go even leaner* .... I think you guys would be talking more about how badly they ran rather that the bad millage. Perhaps it makes them run richer so they may run even better but w bad millage. I sure hope we never get that stuff up here.

Eric Henning

 

[Keith]

Nope, nothing wrong with the numbers. I thought that at first, but it was a whole series of data points, not just one or two. I used to control chart chemical processes for a living, so I know how to handle the data, and this was a statistically significant series. Can't explain it, but it's real.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Keith,
OK good. Statistics can bite one in the fantail but it sounds like you've got serious numbers. I don't think we have any ethanol here so my interest is academic only but I'd sure like to know.

John,
Don't use avgas on 2 strokes. We tried 80/87 w ultralight aircraft in the early 80s and found it to be too dirty. Way too much lead.

Eric Henning

 

[FF]

\



"I can concieve of a 1 to 2% loss in mileage but 15%"

. Come read my log book on a 440Dodge working hard with a 12.000 lb motor home.

"We tried 80/87 w ultralight aircraft in the early 80s and found it to be too dirty. Way too much lead."


A whole bunch of the lead is gone from avgas in the past 30 years .

Far easier to swop out a spark plug than dump a bunch of gas and rebuild the carb yet again for most folks.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Fred,

100 LL is any thing but LOW lead. It's a bit like buying low fat hamburger or food labeled low salt. I don't remember the specifics about 80/87 but I do remember that after a few guys tried it no one used it.
Even casual statistics can be correct enough to use and it sounds like you and Keith have good numbers. I'm surprised no one has come forth w the reason for ethanol's bad performance. Looks like our government is disfunctional. How else could ethanol exist.

Eric Henning

 

[Baker]

Ethanol's bad performance is simple science....just low BTUs. It does not produce as much heat.

ANd as far as the engine going lean, it is a much higher octane rating so you could go leaner without fear of detonation....although I don't think a 10% mix makes much difference.

ANd Keith, our fuel is reformulated with the seasons(which you probably knew). Probably right about the time of Ike, we were going back to a WInter blend and then we go to a Summer blend in May? The Summer blend is less efficientand more expensive....which is why our gas prices creep up in the Summer.

-- Edited by Baker on Sunday 7th of June 2009 11:30:34 AM

 

[Keith]

Yes, I'm aware of seasonal formulations, and no, that wasn't the cause. If so, I'd see the same kind of drop every year and have never seen anything like that. Also, you would expect the* mileage to go UP in the fall/winter blends, not down, and you'd never expect that kind of drastic change.

My running average at the time of Ike was 18 MPG. Next few data points after the hurricane: 12.9, 15.8, 16.0, 15.4, 17.7, 16.7. Each of these was a tank of gas, and this series was over the next three months. Eventually the running average got back to where it should have been, but there was a very significant dip in MPG after the hurricane. Had to be a different gasoline formulation, just what was different I have no idea.

I'm just showing that the can formulate the gas to lower it's BTU content and still be within specs, causing the consumer to use more (or less for that matter, but that ain't gonna happen!)

 

[FF]

ANd Keith, our fuel is reformulated with the seasons(which you probably knew).

To add insult to injury there are about 20 different requirements for the fuel, based on Zip codes.

So the fuel may be different across the street , blending , segrigation and special delivery adds to the local costs .

FF

 

[RED]

Keith, John

Don't you have it backwards for the seasonal blends? At least in the PNW, ethanol is blended into the gas in the winter (to supposedly reduce NOX, etc).

We just had an ethanol plant go bankrupt (thankfully!). They built this plant and the business plan was to haul corn by rail to the PNW for the feedstock, from the midwest. Talk about cratering the economics (which are non-existent in the first place). The primary business plan, of course, was government mandates and tax breaks, not economics.

Just hope that more of these idiots turn tits up.

 

[FF]

The primary business plan, of course, was government mandates and tax breaks, not economics.

"Farming the code" sounds like the past 80 years of "farm policy".

 

[FF]

Who makes this stuff happen and then who ends up fix'n it ????

In the USA its the primaries in Iowa .

An election is an auction of funds yet to be stolen.

"Fixin it ", ask the little stinkpots with built in GRP tanks who installed new tanks and rebuilt their engines.

 

[Robby and Bren]

Well I'm a commerical pilot and A&P.100LL.The LL actually stands for lots of lead.Much more than 80/87.Besides the only av gas left is 100LL.You to the best of my Knowledge still get 80/87.Now on the other hand lots of us leagly use regular autofuel in our low compression engines.Saves a ton of money and Our Cessna 172 disent know the difference.Robby in Mobile

*

 

[Baker]

Well I just got a whole tankful of crazy gas and I will let you know how it serves me this weeked. Y'all have fun and see ya on the other side!!!!

 

[FF]

"The LL actually stands for lots of lead.Much more than 80/87.Besides the only av gas left is 100LL".

Lead never hurt an outboard.

In the 60's I was stationed in PR , and since av gas was "free" (PURPLE !! 115/145) an old P2 alcohol tank held enough to run my 13ft Boston Whaler from PR to St Thomas and back.

Kept my boat in ST T and trolled the tourist babes for recreation.

Then were the days , before AIDS, STD and the rest!!