Manatee steadying sail info

[Voyager3]

I’m looking to see if a steadying sail is worth the effort. If so does anyone know where to get one or at least the recommended size?
Thanks

 

[bayview]

IMO not worth it

 

[Oldersalt]

Most trawlers (like our GB 32) have the mast near midships, but to do any good as a steadying sail at anchor, the sail needs to be set well aft. On a ketch we had once we would set the mizzen while at anchor and it actually worked! On our GB 32, the steadying sail has very little effect in reducing the boat's desire to "sail" around the anchor. Some say that while you are actually going somewhere, the steadying sail can help reduce rolling a bit or maybe even add half a knot to your speed, but I have never bothered to try to set it while underway.
Hope this helps...
Good luck.
Oldersalt

 

[markpierce]

My steadying sails can add a half knot with favorable (beam-like) winds while cruising below hull speed. Have not used the mainsail for steadying at anchor, because never had the need. Nevertheless, the boat's builder recommended angling the sail somewhat from the boat's axis if one has a "sailing-around the anchor" issue.

 

[psneeld]

Steadying sails are for anti-roll ....NOT sailing at anchor and well designed steadying sails are NOT designed for propulsion but might add speed as a secondary benefit.

For an appropriate size there are calculations on the web for them...I no longer have links but some research may provide links.

 

[markpierce]

.... well designed steadying sails are NOT designed for propulsion but might add speed as a secondary benefit...

Agree, but they can help if the sails, in total, are not handkerchiefs.

 

[mvweebles]

I’m looking to see if a steadying sail is worth the effort. If so does anyone know where to get one or at least the recommended size?
Thanks

Willards almost always came with a small sail. My Willard 36 came with a sizeable rig and my Willard 30 also came with a small hanky sized sail. Both boats have more ballast and less above area than a manatee. Unless there is a relatively significant sail plan as shown on the DD Coot with tanbark sails in this thread, I don't think it's a good use of time or money. For me, it took a half a hurricane on the beam to put a set on the boat.

 

[Voyager3]

Thanks to all. If the price is right I might do it just because I have all the tackle for it. I’m not going to spend too much more time on it. Thanks again!!

 

[psneeld]

Agree, but they can help if the sails, in total, are not handkerchiefs.

It's not that Mark....and I wish I either had your rig or a motor sailer most days.

A proper steadying sail is hard and flat as a board...no aerodynamic shape at all. It's only function is to provide maximum lateral resistance.

Sure regular sails help with rolling...but a properly made/used steadying sail can be smaller and effective if made and used correctly.

 

[Voyager3]

That’s what the canvas guy here told me too. I just got a rough estimate of 700.00 for. 5’ tall by 8’ long and he wants to install a track up the 5’ Of mast. I was looking to slow the rolling a bit while cruising.
Thanks Tom

 

[mvweebles]

That’s what the canvas guy here told me too. I just got a rough estimate of 700.00 for. 5’ tall by 8’ long and he wants to install a track up the 5’ Of mast. I was looking to slow the rolling a bit while cruising.
Thanks Tom

By the time the corner hardware and roach on edges are figured, you're talking about 15-sf of sail. Will do next to nothing, especially on a Manatee that has a relatively high amount of windage (A/B Ratio has to be 3.5-4.0). Mount a sheet of plywood up there as a test and see if you feel any difference. Dimes to donuts you won't.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

The right way and only way to have an clue if it will work is to run the numbers.....

Which unless you already have the stability numbers for the boat will be very involved.

Next best is take it out in some heavy wakes to get a rate of roll and the approximate roll axis.

 

[mvweebles]

The right way and only way to have an clue if it will work is to run the numbers.....

Which unless you already have the stability numbers for the boat will be very involved.

Next best is take it out in some heavy wakes to get a rate of roll and the approximate roll axis.

This came up a couple weeks ago and you posted a really interesting article. That said, I don't think it takes a complicated calculation to tell that effect a a 15sf sail will have on a Manatee.

As a suggestion, a fellow Willard owner (40-footer) just had roll chocks installed. Was done in Mexico for around $2k, so maybe $5k in US. He reports very noticible improvements. Rather than throw $700 plus rigging, might want to search sofa cushions for some spare change.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

The point is... the OP doesn't know, I dont know and you dont know.

Your guess is just one of 3. (Plus it is the entire sail that helps a riding sail, even the corner boards if even used...I dont believe I have on the sails I have seen. Also...it can be bigger than just 5 feet tall uf there is more room on the mast.)

I have no idea what force it would take to slow or reduce the roll of a KK Manatee or a Willard.

There are shortcuts in estimating stability...like eyeballing what a 200 pound person does to trim...but if one is going to spend the money....I like crunching some reasonable data first.

Rolling chocks get all over the map reviews too. What works on one hull doesnt necessarily on another. But yes rolling chocks are another viable direction to go after similar research is done to eliminate a steadying sail.

And possibly a set of both in lesser sizes may be a better or worse answer that I haven't even thought about before. Food for thought.

 

[mvweebles]

The point is... the OP doesn't know, I dont know and you dont know.

Your guess is just one of 3. (Plus it is the entire sail that helps a riding sail, even the corner boards if even used...I dont believe I have on the sails I have seen. Also...it can be bigger than just 5 feet tall uf there is more room on the mast.)

I have no idea what force it would take to slow or reduce the roll of a KK Manatee or a Willard.

There are shortcuts in estimating stability...like eyeballing what a 200 pound person does to trim...but if one is going to spend the money....I like crunching some reasonable data first.

Rolling chocks get all over the map reviews too. What works on one hull doesnt necessarily on another. But yes rolling chocks are another viable direction to go after similar research is done to eliminate a steadying sail.

And possibly a set of both in lesser sizes may be a better or worse answer that I haven't even thought about before. Food for thought.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. At the margin, I understand there are calculations to be done. But this is far away from the margin. A steady sail works best with a beam wind which is when it's needed most as that usually has a beam sea. I'd guess a Manatee has close to 300-sf of broadside windage. Adding 5% more windage (15sf) is not going to make a difference. Maybe if you put it on a 50-foot flagpole length mast to give a long-arm lever.

I'll quote Bob Dylan here: You don't need a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows.

As always, good discussion.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

A beam wind helps but is not really the reason for a steadying sail as they should help on those "oily sea'/wind less days with swells too.

I too have an "experienced eye" as you are alluding to....and yes a 5×8 sail is below where I would even consider....but till one experiments or does some math....then they are just joe average, assuming the wind in their back yard is the "direction of the wind" whereas the weatherman has done some homework.

So back to the OP....the estimate sail is probably not big enough, but the other answers that said don't waste your time are not the way I see it. I say do or get someone to do the calculations for a proper steadying sail and then make the decision or switch to other things that have their own issues.

 

[mvweebles]

Here is the link to David Gerr's treatise on stability factors that psneeld kindly posted a few weeks ago on another thread of similar nature (Cheoy Lee 55 wondering about effectiveness of a dainty steadying sail).

https://www.gerrmarine.com/Articles/PowerboatStability.pdf

It's a good read, a bit technical, but a good read.

Peter

 

[healhustler]

This is a shot of the famous great looper boat “Man-a-Tee”. Ted is currently on his 30th (yes, that’s a three with a zero) loop with this same boat. His colorful sail looks to be about 12’ x 8 ft. (maybe 48 sq. ft.) and he says it doesn’t contribute much to rolling resistance underway, even with the sail high on the mast where it can achieve the most leverage. (His mast is both taller and beefier than the standard equipment). The sail fully extended aft does help somewhat with the boat’s tendency to hunt at anchor.

If you’re looking to further stabilize the good initial stability designed into the Manatee hull without hydraulic or pneumatic fins, it’s going to take a hell of a rig to do it.

 

[healhustler]

Here’s the rig that will do it. This boat was sold to new owners out in the PNW about three weeks ago, but in addition to the A-Frame paravane system, it the seller says it also sports a large staysail (probably in the range of 240 sq. ft.) that does indeed halt the roll, so much so that dispatching the paravane fish is not often necessary. The boat has made four trips to Alaska, three on the inside passage and one trip outside, and has been as far south as Panama. I’m still trying to track down the new owners and get them here on TF.

Note: There are at least three other stabilized Manatees using fins. Two pneumatic Gyro Gale installations and one hydraulic.

 

[psneeld]

Is that a fairly large motorcycle on the upper deck of Man-A-Tee?

 

[healhustler]

Is that a fairly large motorcycle on the upper deck of Man-A-Tee?

Yeah...650 lbs.. The mast & boom also hefts his 1850 lb. dinghy from time to time.