KK Justification of High Price

[Fletcher500]

Sun, and others, have made some very good points in this thread.

There are many blue water ocean capable boats that sit in their slip. Anyone going down the ocean crossing path in a 40 to 50 something foot boat should be eyes wide open.

I was looking at used Nordhavns, KK's, and other "blue water" boats during our search for our third and probably last boat. I was honest with myself for the boats intended use - coastal cruising. We have covered almost 1,000 miles over the past year of ownership. Thats not a lot of miles compared to many, but my wife and I still work so the amount of time we have been able to get out there has been good. I will be retiring next year, so our time on the water will increase, but it will always be along the coast, the Islands, and never more than 100 miles offshore and that will be to the Cortes Bank which is on my bucket list.

With the above said, I think all of the aforementioned boats are excellent and it appears many of the people who are on TF do use them for their intended purpose of longer range cruising.

 

[jimdavi]

Folks, I have not driven my NP45 following seas yet. Trevor told me it doesn’t handle any different than other SD hulls he’s driven. Jack DeFriel will be driving Couple’s Retreat down to SFO from SEA and I can guarantee that there will be both large swells and following seas. I plan to have him report out to me and perhaps take some video. He’s driven a few boats...I, myself don’t plan any blue water cruising and lucky I got my bride out in The Bay! Tentative trip start will be ~7/8 Oct pending weather windows.

 

[twistedtree]

I don’t think KKs are necessarily over priced for what they are and what you get. It’s probably more a question of how much you need, every bit of which costs $$.

 

[healhustler]

So their China website is wrong I suppose:
How would you know what's accounted for by the way?

Since your initial response was quoting SailorGreg about there being about 600 Krogens out there, and your comment was pointing out the obvious conclusion is that since 1991, the yearly production only adds up to about 300, I thought I’d confirm that there actually are the 600 units. Since the production began around 1977, the greater number of Krogen boats were probably built by 1991. That includes all 99 Manatees, 165 or so of the over 200 42’s, and more than 80 38’ cutters. Then there were the one-off designs that still pop up now and then. I would know that as anyone who has seen the data bases on the various KK Cruiser websites over the years.

 

[BandB]

Since your initial response was quoting SailorGreg about there being about 600 Krogens out there, and your comment was pointing out the obvious conclusion is that since 1991, the yearly production only adds up to about 300, I thought I’d confirm that there actually are the 600 units. Since the production began around 1977, the greater number of Krogen boats were probably built by 1991. That includes all 99 Manatees, 165 or so of the over 200 42’s, and more than 80 38’ cutters. Then there were the one-off designs that still pop up now and then. I would know that as anyone who has seen the data bases on the various KK Cruiser websites over the years.

I think the 300 number overlooked earlier production. The 600 makes sense over 42 years. I would guess in the last 28 years, since 1991, less than half, likely around 260 as there have been some very lean years during that time.

 

[Fletcher500]

DD, if you have a couple pictures of your NP45's hull at haul out, it would be interesting to see them.

 

[Coastal Cruiser]

Kadey-Krogen held a 40th anniversary event in Newport in June, 2017. About 45 boats attended.
They reported that they had delivered about 6 boats YTD and that there were about 6 under construction. They reported specific numbers but my memory fails me. But it added up to their "dozen boats a year".
KK's are built in Kaoshung,Taiwan. For the last 29 years they have been built by Asia Harbor Yacht Builders. Family owned yard that only builds Kadey-Krogens.
As part of the 40th event KK brought over 10 members of the Asia Harbor family. It was great to meet them and I think they enjoyed seeing the owners and their boats "in action" so to speak.
Fleming, Outer Reef, Ocean Alexander, Horizon are also built in Kaoshung. Many other builders have move to mainland China, for cost reasons I suspect.

 

[dhays]

Folks, I have not driven my NP45 following seas yet. Trevor told me it doesn’t handle any different than other SD hulls he’s driven. Jack DeFriel will be driving Couple’s Retreat down to SFO from SEA and I can guarantee that there will be both large swells and following seas. I plan to have him report out to me and perhaps take some video. He’s driven a few boats...I, myself don’t plan any blue water cruising and lucky I got my bride out in The Bay! Tentative trip start will be ~7/8 Oct pending weather windows.

It would be nice if you could go along with him. It would be a nice chance for a great learning experience.

 

[Sealife]

If you want to know more about the build quality of early KK 42's, read the blog of one of our posters, Sealife.

https://caribbeansealife.com/about-our-boat/refit/

Keep in mind this boat crossed the Atlantic before I tore it apart. If not for the destructive testing, none of this would have been found, and probably would have not been a problem. I guess that’s were being built like a tank comes in. Some wear and tear or quality control isn’t a game ender.

I also looked for ANY boat that was not a KK due to budget, but could not find what I needed.

 

[ddw36]

In 1995, newly divorced & retired, I wanted to fulfill a lifelong dream of ocean voyaging. I chose a sailboat, but that didn't work out. So, 25 yrs later @ 83, I'm rethinking "what if" I'd chosen a power boat. The 1996 issue of Motor Yachts & Trawlers by McKnew/Parker, reveals the KK42 was the only boat qualifying, w/o extensive upgrading of fuel capacity. MY&T lists them back to 1979 at affordable (for me) prices. Other boats seemed as capable, but lacking fuel capacity.



Many of you salts were around, then. Can you cite any other make the equal of the KK42, at that time that MY&T doesn't list?

 

[jimdavi]

It would be nice if you could go along with him. It would be a nice chance for a great learning experience.

Wish I could go with the boat on delivery, but work/travel prohibits it. One other point I forgot to make on following seas;Trevor mentioned autopilot should be off or set to max sensitivity.

 

[healhustler]

In 1995, newly divorced & retired, I wanted to fulfill a lifelong dream of ocean voyaging. I chose a sailboat, but that didn't work out. So, 25 yrs later @ 83, I'm rethinking "what if" I'd chosen a power boat. The 1996 issue of Motor Yachts & Trawlers by McKnew/Parker, reveals the KK42 was the only boat qualifying, w/o extensive upgrading of fuel capacity. MY&T lists them back to 1979 at affordable (for me) prices. Other boats seemed as capable, but lacking fuel capacity.



Many of you salts were around, then. Can you cite any other make the equal of the KK42, at that time that MY&T doesn't list?

Not identical, but equally featured was Willard 36 & 40, Hatteras 42 & 48 LRC’s, Cheoy Lee Seamaster.

 

[JDCAVE]

What type of build quality issues does she have?

If you want to know more about the build quality of early KK 42's, read the blog of one of our posters, Sealife.

https://caribbeansealife.com/about-our-boat/refit/

Yes, Scott on Sealife has much greater expertise on this subject than I have. He really “went to town” on his boat. I found the walls of the scuppers were “wafer thin”. Also, decks are known issues as well as the concerns with resins in the FRP layup. However, remember my boat is 34 years old. It’s going to have some issues. But I believe the features of this boat outweigh the deficiencies. The deficiencies have been rectified in the new builds”.

You simply cannot find another raised pilothouse with full displacement at 42’ with all of the space this boat has at this price point: $200,000 USD.

No other boat, at 42’ has a wheelhouse as large as the KK42. They don’t exist. The floor alone is 50”x127”. Dash is 112” x 33”. Watch berth converts to a queen bed.

Jim

 

[markpierce]

...
The reason that I started the thread was because my boat does so poorly in following seas ...

Mine does too. "Rock-a-by-baby ..." Can be largely avoided if moving faster than the waves. Not possible for me.

 

[jimdavi]

Is that one of the differences of the blue water boat with soft chines and round stern, rock and roll but stable in rough seas?

 

[dirtdoc1]

Is that one of the differences of the blue water boat with soft chines and round stern, rock and roll but stable in rough seas?

Jim,

At the risk of exposing my ignorance on the subject I heard it described like this: A FD hull would act more like a half filled coke bottle in waves where the SD hull would react more like a board. Perhaps a crude and overly simplified analogy but I like it. I don't know if it's an accurate analogy but it makes sense to me and helps me picture what's going on with the dynamics of the different hull forms. The FD hull would sit deeper in the water. The ballast would help stability. It may roll more but only up to a point with the ballast limiting the degree of roll. ??

I would like to clarify that in my posts I never meant to imply that the North Pacific is any worse or better than any other 8-10 knot SD trawler with a flat transom. I'm attempting to learn from the many knowledgeable blue water cruisers on the TF how a FD trawler does in Following Seas compared to a SD trawler. I should have made that more clear. I love my NP and do not intend to replace it until I decide to make some blue water trips, which may never happen. I'm new to trawlers and ocean cruising with all of 1600 nm experience in the two seasons that I've owned the boat.

I will also be taking my trawler down to the bay area eventually and Jim and I will actually be neighbors at West Point Marina in Redwood City. I'm going to hire a captain to make the trip with me. I'm actually a bit nervous about the conditions that we may run in to. I'm going to take my time and try to sit out any weather.

 

[jimdavi]

Well said DD! I’ll be in Blaine next Wednesday if you are around.

 

[dirtdoc1]

Mine does too. "Rock-a-by-baby ..." Can be largely avoided if moving faster than the waves. Not possible for me.

That's a full displacement hull. I'm kind of surprised to hear that about a serious blue water trawler. Maybe I'm expecting too much from 8-10 knot trawlers. Do you have stabilizers?

 

[JDCAVE]

I love my NP and do not intend to replace it until I decide to make some blue water trips, which may never happen. I'm new to trawlers and ocean cruising with all of 1600 nm experience in the two seasons that I've owned the boat.

This reminds me there was a couple about 9 years ago, or so, who decided they wanted to cross oceans and purchased a KK42. They did an Alaska trip then went to Anacortes, where they installed paravanes and went to Baja. Then, with stops along the way, went to Australia. Once they got to Australia, they left the boat and sold it. They had several misfortunes, some self inflicted. For example, I’m convinced the rigging for their paravanes was under built, and they had no spares.

They had an online blog that has since been removed from the web. It’s a shame really that it is no longer available, because their story was a good example of the dangers of this sort of thing.

Jim

 

[dirtdoc1]

This reminds me there was a couple about 9 years ago, or so, who decided they wanted to cross oceans and purchased a KK42. They did an Alaska trip then went to Anacortes, where they installed paravanes and went to Baja. Then, with stops along the way, went to Australia. Once they got to Australia, they left the boat and sold it. They had several misfortunes, some self inflicted. For example, I’m convinced the rigging for their paravanes was under built, and they had no spares.

They had an online blog that has since been removed from the web. It’s a shame really that it is no longer available, because their story was a good example of the dangers of this sort of thing.

Jim

I’m nervous just about running down the coast. You keep telling me stories like that and I’ll never go. I like to watch the videos that wavemaster1 posts on YouTube. I already think it’s a foolish idea. I’m wondering if 50’ is too small?

 

[Simi 60]

Patience.
If you have no real timeframe wait for the right weather window


Plenty of people travel the globe in pretty average boats and manage fine.
Others have arguably the best boat and have their arse handed to them on a plate.

 

[hollywood8118]

This reminds me there was a couple about 9 years ago, or so, who decided they wanted to cross oceans and purchased a KK42. They did an Alaska trip then went to Anacortes, where they installed paravanes and went to Baja. Then, with stops along the way, went to Australia. Once they got to Australia, they left the boat and sold it. They had several misfortunes, some self inflicted. For example, I’m convinced the rigging for their paravanes was under built, and they had no spares.

They had an online blog that has since been removed from the web. It’s a shame really that it is no longer available, because their story was a good example of the dangers of this sort of thing.

Jim

Was this the couple from Eastern Washington?
I believe I was the same pair I met the summer we took our boat down the coast and did the Columbia and Snake rivers.
To call their boating experience minimal would be a epic understatement.
They had no business trying to cross an ocean.. not to mention even operating the boat on the confines of a river.
This may sound harsh.. but I recall a statement from the Admiral that she expected them to loose the boat at some !
Glad they didn't end up lost at sea..
HOLLYWOOD

 

[jimdavi]

Capt jack is bringing mine down the coast!

 

[Mako]

I just left the Annapolis motor boat show. They had a KK52 and a Nordy63. The KK was only $200k less than the big Nordy. Very nice boat but seriously overpriced if you are concerned about value IMO.

 

[BruceK]

This reminds me there was a couple about 9 years ago, or so, who decided they wanted to cross oceans and purchased a KK42. They did an Alaska trip then went to Anacortes, where they installed paravanes and went to Baja. Then, with stops along the way, went to Australia. Once they got to Australia, they left the boat and sold it....Jim

I remember that boat being on market. Another TFer(now Scraping Paint)inspected it. Took a long while to sell, the brand is largely unknown here, though KK did exhibit at a Sydney Boat Show a few years back with a very impressive 48, then owned by a TF member.

 

[bogranjac1]

Was this the couple from Eastern Washington?
I believe I was the same pair I met the summer we took our boat down the coast and did the Columbia and Snake rivers.
To call their boating experience minimal would be a epic understatement.
They had no business trying to cross an ocean.. not to mention even operating the boat on the confines of a river.
This may sound harsh.. but I recall a statement from the Admiral that she expected them to loose the boat at some !
Glad they didn't end up lost at sea..
HOLLYWOOD

Well, that's a great example of KK's and "the justification of their high price" is well founded. If those two were so inexperienced and didn't have much knowledge but got to Oz alive do you think the KK saved their lives at some time when another boat may have sunk ?

 

[hollywood8118]

Well, that's a great example of KK's and "the justification of their high price" is well founded. If those two were so inexperienced and didn't have much knowledge but got to Oz alive do you think the KK saved their lives at some time when another boat may have sunk ?

Probably.. and dumb luck.


As Richard has pointed out on many occasions the KK42 is a tough boat.. most likely tougher than the skippers.
I personally think a $200k 42 is a deal as a sea boat. And they sip fuel.


HOLLYWOOD

 

[JeremiahM]

I just left the Annapolis motor boat show. They had a KK52 and a Nordy63. The KK was only $200k less than the big Nordy. Very nice boat but seriously overpriced if you are concerned about value IMO.

Did you do a "side by side" on what was included in the prices?

Jeremiah

 

[dirtdoc1]

I think I found the perfect long distance trawler. The Cape Horn trawlers. Double steel hull; Self righting within seconds; 3700 gal fuel with a range of about 8k miles! 8 knot cruise; 9 knot full speed. Has multiple water tight compartments. The interior doors have water tight steel doors in addition to the wood doors. The steel doors are tucked away out of view. The builder claims that the boat is made to survive any kind of seas that may come up. They have bilge keels so they will be level if stranded at low tide. The hull ranges from 3/8" to 3" thick. That's 3" of steel! The windows are bolt in 1/2" tempered glass. You could run in ice with this thing although I wouldn't try it intentionally.

Here's the incredible part: 1999 55' Cape Horn a clean one for $500k and a rusted one for $300k. The interiors are very nice. The steel trawlers represent a very reasonable price range compared to FG.

I think I may have found my future blue water trawler. It's twice as heavy as a comparable Nordhavn and goes just as fast. At about 2 mpg (per my rough calcs) it's reasonably economical too.

I'm still searching but these look promising.

 

[Mako]

Did you do a "side by side" on what was included in the prices?

I didn’t list things down, but roughly...

The KK was a twin with thruster. Asymmetric deckhouse. It was quite lively just tied up in its slip.

The NH was way over equipped IMO. Single with 100hp wing. Stern and bow thrusters. Hydraulic stabilizers installed because the TWO Seakeeper gyrostabilizers were reportedly really poor in performance. Much bigger and heavier boat. About half the motion in its slip (they were berthed side by side). As a negative, the hydraulics were all powered by the wing. No electric pump as well, so if your wing goes down then so do the windlass and thrusters.

There are Pros and cons for both boats. There’s a big difference in that extra 10 feet, at a lower price.