Wood Boat - Insurance and Pending dilemna

[Art]

Oh... Screw It! LOL

[boomerang]

Originally Posted by psneeld

I have read many a time.... nails are preferred over screws as fasteners in wood boats.

The USCG requires pulling planks on commercial boats for a good reason...most wooden boats are no longer with us due to failed fasteners.

I was in the middle of an investigation where the USCG almost found wooden boats for commercial use where passengers or recreational fishermen were carried almost were outlawed back in the mid 90s.

I saw entire fleets of wooden fishing boats sink and kill the crews in my 20+ years of USCG helo flying.

While true modern wooden boat design is way safer....the old plank style is an accident waiting to happen unless the owner gets it and is testing/pulling fasteners every year or so or ensuring a complete refastening has been done recently.

Years ago we were fishing just a few miles below the El Toro, a wooden party boat that went down in the mouth of the Potomac when a conditions went from flat calm to gale force in a few minutes (the weather forecast warned of the event). I believe planking came loose from the bottom in that instance and several lives were lost.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Comodave

Yes, it certainly would be disappointing to have that done to your baby.

If you don't do it...you are taking a huge risk.

There is a reason why the USCG does it.

[Comodave]

Originally Posted by psneeld

If you don't do it...you are taking a huge risk.

There is a reason why the USCG does it.

Agree, but it would still be disappointing.

[Portage_Bay]

Traditional wood boats were often fastened with square cut galvanized nails. A piece of steel rod can be tacked to the nail head and the nail withdrawn. Then the next size up driven in the hole. I've seen skilled shipwrights do it for surveys and inspections.

Any fastener in a planked wood boat fails at the plank to frame joint. Nails or screws, steel, stainless steel, bronze. It doesn't matter

Sent from my SM-A125U using Trawler Forum mobile app

[Art]

Working in LI, NY boat yards in 1960's... we refastened wood bottoms with Monel screws... whenever boat owner could afford it. Monel was expensive compared to other metal fasteners.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Art

Working in LI, NY boat yards in 1960's... we refastened wood bottoms with Monel screws... whenever boat owner could afford it. Monel was expensive compared to other metal fasteners.

And not correct for all wooden boat construction.

Lots of yards didn't do it correct and boats sank because of it.

[Art]

Originally Posted by psneeld

And not correct for all wooden boat construction.

Lots of yards didn't do it correct and boats sank because of it.

Why do you feel Monel fasteners not correct for some boat's wood hull planks... as original fasteners or refastens?

In the 60's I was told by old-time boatwrights that Monel was the best metal screws to use below water wood hull portions. Especially due to its restriction to corrosion/electrolysis.

What makes it incorrect for some [but not all] wooden boat construction?

I'm interested to learn.

[BruceK]

Originally Posted by Art

Why do you feel Monel fasteners not correct for some boat's wood hull planks... as original fasteners or refastens? ...I'm interested to learn.

Me too. I though Monel was inert and got along nicely with other materials, but that might not be so. Pricy stuff, no point shelling out for it if there are contra indications.

[ksanders]

Originally Posted by Alaskan Sea-Duction

So if you put all that money in the bank instead of insurance would you have a big nugget.

So true, assuming you live out your boating career claim free.

As a retiree what I have is all I am going to have in this lifetime.

One spill cleanup would make the difference between my nice comfortable retirement, living on my boat, and living out my years in a cheap apartment scraping by.

Nope, not this cruiser. I smile every year when i pay my insurance bill.

[Comodave]

And I actually want quality insurance so that maybe I don’t loose everything if there is an incident…

[ksanders]

Originally Posted by Comodave

And I actually want quality insurance so that maybe I don’t loose everything if there is an incident…

price is the least important aspect of insurance.

Of course get your best price, but get it for the risk level you are comfortable assuming.

[Comodave]

Originally Posted by ksanders

price is the least important aspect of insurance.

Of course get your best price, but get it for the risk level you are comfortable assuming.

+1.

[Simi 60]

Our hull planking is all 2 inch spotted gum
Insanely hard stuff
Big bronze screws hold them in

[Simi 60]

A bit of surgery happening now
New timber to the right is a 3 metre section of 150 X 50 hardwood top plank through bolted and caulked with oakum
Then 2 laminations of 150 X 30 hardwood glued with epoxy and fastened with 75mm fasteners
Tomorrow the actual rub rail goes back in, that will be glued and through bolted through everything.
THEN and only then can the deck planks be screwed back in and the ply decks glued down and glassed

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Art

Why do you feel Monel fasteners not correct for some boat's wood hull planks... as original fasteners or refastens?

In the 60's I was told by old-time boatwrights that Monel was the best metal screws to use below water wood hull portions. Especially due to its restriction to corrosion/electrolysis.

What makes it incorrect for some [but not all] wooden boat construction?

I'm interested to learn.

It's not what I feel, it's what I have experienced and read through the years.

I guess it's the construction method....Carvel vs lapstrake, solid wood vs plywood planks, rib to plank, cross bottom plank vs keel, size of boat/planking, etc...etc and that galvanized square reacted differently with some woods vs monel or other.....screws are more brittle....etc...etc...

A quick search of nails vs screws for wooden boats gives rough explanations.

I do think many refastenings may have used screws because they "can" be better than in the "old" days because of progress, but still...used in the wrong application or material and it only takes a few to fail to sink a boat.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by boomerang

Years ago we were fishing just a few miles below the El Toro, a wooden party boat that went down in the mouth of the Potomac when a conditions went from flat calm to gale force in a few minutes (the weather forecast warned of the event). I believe planking came loose from the bottom in that instance and several lives were lost.

That was the investigation I mentioned...for those interested in how USCG inspections go, how the industry deals with safety and how simple fishing trips go wrong.....a lot of it wound up on the internet.

Also read about the heroic USCG rescue swimmer in the water in 10 foot steep stuff assisting victims when the USCG boat came down off one and hit him in the head....he kept going and helped save something like 20 more.

[Art]

Originally Posted by psneeld

It's not what I feel, it's what I have experienced and read through the years.

I guess it's the construction method....Carvel vs lapstrake, solid wood vs plywood planks, rib to plank, cross bottom plank vs keel, size of boat/planking, etc...etc and that galvanized square reacted differently with some woods vs monel or other.....screws are more brittle....etc...etc...

A quick search of nails vs screws for wooden boats gives rough explanations.

I do think many refastenings may have used screws because they "can" be better than in the "old" days because of progress, but still...used in the wrong application or material and it only takes a few to fail to sink a boat.

Thanks ps! Correct, lots of variables.

I've never read any particularly disparaging text on Monel vs other material for hull fasteners. Then again, I've not looked into nor practiced marine wood working since mid 1970's. My affinity for Monel screw hull fasteners all "stem" [pun intended] from 50's, 60's to mid 70's.

I've not researched and [now, because of posts in this thread] wonder what material and design [still being some sort of metal I guess] fasteners are used today as hull fasteners for wood to wood locations in, on and around hull areas??

[psneeld]

Think it still depends on many of the factors I listed above.

Bronze ring nails I see in many boat plans as well as screws for certain members.

But it doesn't mean that some may still prefer other fasteners as the variable demands.

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

A bit of surgery happening now
New timber to the right is a 3 metre section of 150 X 50 hardwood top plank through bolted and caulked with oakum
Then 2 laminations of 150 X 30 hardwood glued with epoxy and fastened with 75mm fasteners
Tomorrow the actual rub rail goes back in, that will be glued and through bolted through everything.
THEN and only then can the deck planks be screwed back in and the ply decks glued down and glassed

WOW! That looks like a lot of work. Show us the finished product too please.


I always admire those who have wood boats. A labor of love.