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Old 09-24-2021, 02:19 PM   #61
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Both Mr. Blu and Robster make good points but as with everything involving biology it’s a bit more complicated. External hydrostatic pressure presses on and compresses your veinous and lymphatic systems. If you’re suddenly removed from that external pressure blood and interstitial fluids will rush into them. Preload to the heart falls as does stroke volume and cardiac output. You compensate by arterial constriction in an effort to maintain perfusion to the brain and coronary arteries but leave the rest of your arterial system constricted. Unless the event is severe and there’s an absence of preexisting stenosis in the vessels it maybe not be the 100% death sentence implied. It is commonly impossible to bring someone out of the water into a small recreational boat horizontally. However, putting them in a Trendeleburg position immediately or near as you can is wise in most cases. Of course if they can be brought up horizontally that’s wonderful. Of course the airway must be clear to start and protected. This vascular collapse can occur after a latency even if brought up horizontally. So someone could look fine upon retrieval then collapse. So maintenance of theTrendelenburg is wise until they seem fully resolved from the immersion.

Retrieval by swim ladder is unlikely unless it brief immersion in warm water. Even with that option available it’s likely you will need to assist. It’s much safer to utilize a Lifesling or similar device either in conjunction with a swim ladder or independently. Realize even fit people will be exhausted and they either will not be able to assist or only to a minimum degree. Part of SAS training was getting into a life raft in totally calm water. Even after just jumping in when I was in my late twenties it was d-mn hard. Now after snorkeling it takes me a moment to collect myself and climb up the swim ladder. Think if I was a MOB may be I could do it but likely would need assistance. My wife is 100lbs. It’s a big maybe. Worst thing would be for us both end up in the water with the boat drifting away. So no on the swim ladder, yes on a lifesling or similar device.
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Old 09-24-2021, 02:27 PM   #62
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May want to discuss hypothermia and shock if the recovered is allowed to exert themselves too much or even walk a bit.

The USCG has been sued a couple times I think because people recovered felt fine in the helo, insisted they could walk to the ambulance, and collapsed and died on the helo ramp.
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Old 09-24-2021, 03:05 PM   #63
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Stand to be corrected, I recall being told if hauling someone on board, do so on their back, do not fold their body over the rails on their front.
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Old 09-24-2021, 03:43 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Mr. Blu View Post
An important important issue is that it is necessary that the MOB is taken aboard in a horizontal position and kept that way when aboard. The reason for this is that otherwise the MOB can die because of the fluids that leave his head as there is space in the other parts of the body. Somebody who stays a while in the water looses water due to water pressure. That's why you have to urinate a lot when you are in the water.
So there occurs underpressure in the body when the MOB is taken aboard in a vertical position and bloodpressure drops very fast. By using a horizontal position this can be avoided.
In our RCMSAR training, a preferred method of recovery of a person from the water is by "Parbuckling". This involves rolling the person up over the tubes of the RIB, but could be easily adapted to getting the person up onto the swim grid.
Not necessary if the person can climb a ladder.
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Old 09-24-2021, 05:28 PM   #65
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Like to chime in, although I am a sailor soon to be a trawler boater.
All personal beacons must be AIS,if you're just a couple on board there is nobody to keep eyes on the person in the water, marking the MOB on the plotter may or not work depending the level of anxiety on the immediate response, as the person hits the water the beacon starts to transmit not only to your boat but all the boats in the vicinity.
With the aid of the beacon, the second person should be able to return to the victim quite quickly.
Now the second part, how to get the person onboard?
Easier on a sailboat,I rigged a 3 to 1 purchase line ready to deploy from the end of the boom and retrieve the body, even if unresponsive.
I suspect on a powerboat is more complicated, however not impossible to figure an emergency system to retrieve an unresponsive, unable to cooperate person, will involve the use of purchase with blocks.
Finally, although I sail alone most of the time, when having guests or crew, before leaving I stress the point I do not have MOB but IOB (Idiot Over Board) systems.
I do not like the term MOB as it implies if you have a system and practice the person will be retrieved.
So, not falling overboard is the only proved 100% recovery MOB system.
It has already been covered the issues of cardiac shock secondary to sudden exposure to cold water, as well as hypothermia.
Of interest, most people fall into the water either at the dock, or anchored.
good luck
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Old 09-24-2021, 06:04 PM   #66
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I just had a thought. For those with stern davits, if there are 2+ people still on the boat, dump the dinghy in the water, pull it off to the side and use the davits to lift the POB onto the swim platform. Then they're out of the water and you have a minute to figure out what shape they're in and how to get them onto the deck safely.
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Old 09-25-2021, 03:08 PM   #67
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One thing no one has mentioned yet... Verify that your swim ladder can be deployed while you are in the water!

A friend was loading provisions in his boat prior to a weekend out, slipped and fell in at the marina. It was 8:00 at night and no one was around. Pacific Northwest, very cold water. That's when he discovered that his swim step ladder was mounted to the hull at the stern and he could not reach it from the water. In desperation he untied his dock line, put several looped knots in it and managed to get himself out of the water.
...
A swim ladder than can be deployed from the water is an important safety detail.

I don't know where I read the story, but a guy was sailing solo in Scotland, was at anchor, when he fell off the boat, in the night, into cold water.

He had a long and difficult time getting back in the sail boat and was only able to get back aboard after many failed attempts. He was finally able to jamb a foot between the top of the rudder and hull and pull himself on board. He said that last attempt was going to be his last attempt since he had no more energy, was hypothermic and flat out exhausted.

He was so exhausted after getting back aboard that he just collapsed into a berth and passed out. He did not take off his wet clothes even though he was hypothermic.

If he had had a swim ladder that could have been deployed from the water this would have been a non event. As it was, he was almost a statistic.

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Old 09-25-2021, 04:17 PM   #68
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I just had a thought. For those with stern davits, if there are 2+ people still on the boat, dump the dinghy in the water, pull it off to the side and use the davits to lift the POB onto the swim platform. Then they're out of the water and you have a minute to figure out what shape they're in and how to get them onto the deck safely.
==========================================
other possible option is
a bracket with a removable stainless tubing, almost like an outrigger? With a set of blocks and lines running with enough purchase had one made custom by a local metal fabricator to lift a wheelchair from the dock into the cockpit, cost me a few hundred dollars, once used it will just be removed from the bracket and store it away, the bracket was unobtrusive and well-made, just looked like belong there.
The bracket was bolted to the side of the cabin/house, maybe 6 by 6 inches?
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Old 09-25-2021, 04:27 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Robster_in_edmonds View Post
One thing no one has mentioned yet... Verify that your swim ladder can be deployed while you are in the water!

A friend was loading provisions in his boat prior to a weekend out, slipped and fell in at the marina. It was 8:00 at night and no one was around. Pacific Northwest, very cold water. That's when he discovered that his swim step ladder was mounted to the hull at the stern and he could not reach it from the water. In desperation he untied his dock line, put several looped knots in it and managed to get himself out of the water.
...================================
in our marina we have them install steps ladders every so many fingers, that should be something to discuss.
Before that I fell from the boat, tried to lift myself on the dock, got a few scratches from the barnacles and eventually have to swim fully clothed to the kayak ramp, did not realize how heavy clothes can be!!!!
Wasn't because of the ramp am sure will never make it, nobody on sight.!!!
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Old 09-25-2021, 04:51 PM   #70
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Went for a swim in the saragasso sea. Totally becalmed and rags doing nothing. Four aboard. Left two on the boat. Dumped a 50’ floating line with a tylermade on the end. Wasn’t the first time we had done similar. Boat started to drift away. One crew was a daily runner and quite fit. Wasn’t paying attention. He couldn’t catch up to a very slowly drifting boat. We needed to put on the engine to go get him. Got him to the swim ladder off the sugarscoop. He couldn’t help. 6’185lbs. Two of us couldn’t pull him up. Used the lifesling and a winch. He was toast and off watch for 2 days.
The same size power craft will usually drift faster than a sailboat. That’s why sailboats don’t like to anchor near power. Even if you’re fit you don’t swim that fast. I’m sure dannc story is true. But wouldn’t depend on swim ladder self rescue.
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Old 09-25-2021, 05:18 PM   #71
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Went for a swim in the saragasso sea. Totally becalmed and rags doing nothing. Four aboard. Left two on the boat. Dumped a 50í floating line with a tylermade on the end. Wasnít the first time we had done similar. Boat started to drift away. One crew was a daily runner and quite fit. Wasnít paying attention. He couldnít catch up to a very slowly drifting boat. We needed to put on the engine to go get him. Got him to the swim ladder off the sugarscoop. He couldnít help. 6í185lbs. Two of us couldnít pull him up. Used the lifesling and a winch. He was toast and off watch for 2 days.
The same size power craft will usually drift faster than a sailboat. Thatís why sailboats donít like to anchor near power. Even if youíre fit you donít swim that fast. Iím sure dannc story is true. But wouldnít depend on swim ladder self rescue.
==========================
story keeps repeating
no need to be offshore to die.
Considering many boaters are couples, my original post relating to IOB (Idiots Over Board) remains current, because these accidents take place near shore, or protected waters with more likely other boaters nearby, perhaps the practiced, discussed plan should be for the person on board to secure the person that is in the water with the head up and then call for help.
These will be a modified MOB routine, instead of wasting time to lift somebody heavier than the person can muster.
Here the personal AIS beacon is gold as will report it to all near vessels, considering most pleasure and commercial boats have a receiver.
This will allow for the person onboard to attend to the victim.
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Old 09-25-2021, 06:11 PM   #72
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I find the cold water gasp reflex interesting. It is commonly stated that immersion of one's head in cold water causes this uncontrollable reaction. I used to whitewater kayak. Plenty of times in rivers that were running high because of snow melt with water temps in the mid-40s, much colder than Puget Sound. Several times I kayaked rivers with snow on the banks. For those conditions, I always had a spray jacket and skirt with neoprene farmer johns. I could generally roll back up, but sometimes had to "wet exit" and get to shore. But both of these scenarios would have me upside down in very cold water. I never felt the need to gasp, only the need to get upright or to shore.

I wonder if there is a factor of "mental preparedness" that can override the gasp reflex. I certainly knew when I looked at an approaching whitewater rapid that the possibility existed that I would be upside down with my head in freezing water. Sometimes longer than I wanted if I failed to roll up on the first try. I just remember being too preoccupied with getting upright to even think about gasping.
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Old 09-25-2021, 06:51 PM   #73
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I do not think just the head into water causes the gasp, but the chest area getting hit with sudden cold.
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Old 09-25-2021, 08:26 PM   #74
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For realistic MOB setups look at any Pilot Boat in most harbors... Those fellas know whats what and have more MOB experience than the rest of us combined..
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Old 09-25-2021, 08:37 PM   #75
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Fell out of a raft on the snow-fed California American River. (Lost balance in rapids.) Quickly recovered by raft-mates. No negative effects.

Fell out of a sailboat on the brackish Suisun Slough (San Francisco Estuary). (Unanticipated jibe with boom pushing me over while leaning on the deck.) Quickly recovered by father-in-law. No negative effects except for loss of dark eye-glasses.
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