Lock cylinders?

[wkearney99]

My EB47 has two different European style lock cylinders. One made my Wilka, the other by Kroon. For the stern and starboard doors. One is 60mm in length, the other 55mm. GB has offered $30 *each* for replacement key blanks. Which, at that price, I might as well entertain replacing the cylinders, possibly keyed alike.

I searched here and Union doesn't have these sizes, at least not listed online.

Anyone have other suppliers to recommend?

 

[kernr]

Kroon Door Locks

wkearney99 -

Well I did purchase the blanks for my salon slider and got them pretty quickly. I felt it was easier than trying to replace that locking mechanism.

My Starboard Door (she is a GB 47 Europa model) is a different issue. i have a key but it does not go into the mechanism. I thought I would take the locking mechanism off and take it to a locksmith over the winter to see if it can be filed or repaired. But I for the life of me can't seem to figure how to get it off the door. There do not appear to be any set screws on the handles. My question is how do they come off the door - need some help here. I will get some photos of locking mech but they won't show much. Thoughts?

What did you end up doing with yours?

Bob
Serenity

 

[wkearney99]

My Starboard Door (she is a GB 47 Europa model) is a different issue. i have a key but it does not go into the mechanism. I thought I would take the locking mechanism off and take it to a locksmith over the winter to see if it can be filed or repaired. But I for the life of me can't seem to figure how to get it off the door. There do not appear to be any set screws on the handles. My question is how do they come off the door - need some help here. I will get some photos of locking mech but they won't show much. Thoughts?

If it's a euro-cylinder lock (the oval shape) then there's a screw that holds the cylinder in that's accessible from the strike plate (when the door is open).

I haven't seen need to remove the handles on the starboard door.

Pix would definitely help.

 

[kernr]

Kroon Locking Mech

wkearney99 -

Good Afternoon - Well it is a bit chilly up here in RI (19F this morning) but I made it over to the boat to take some photos of the stbd door locking mechanism. there are four photos: The outside of the door(2), the door strike and of course the inside of the door. The screws(3) on the outside just turn but nothing happens - as you would want to happen but one might ask, why are they there? When I zoom in on the key hole (remember the key doesn't even start to enter key slot) - I noticed what might be a little corrosion build up at the top of the key slot - possibly the problem. Regarding the door strike I removed the two screws not present and I did back out the larger screw / bolt until it stopped but didn't want to force anything so I put it back in to shut the door. And then there is the inside and those screws just turn like the outside ones but do not come out - interesting. The handles and dead bolt knob do not have any set screws.

Sorry about photos turning sideways - they are correct in the file I took them from.

Any ideas other than possibly cleaning up the one spot?

Bpb
Serenity

 

[bayview]

Have you tried WD40 and a dental pick or wire to clean out the key slot?

 

[kernr]

Ooops -

wkearney99 -

Looks like I lied - the dead bolt knob on the inside looks like it does have a set screw that can be seen in the door strike photo - it is in the smaller cylinder under the larger cylinder. What did we do before I phones??

Bob
Serenity

 

[kernr]

Kroon Door Lock

bayview -

No not yet - maybe tomorrow if it warms up a bit - good idea - I'll get on it.

Bob
Serenity

 

[wkearney99]

wkearney99 -

Good Afternoon - Well it is a bit chilly up here in RI (19F this morning) but I made it over to the boat to take some photos of the stbd door locking mechanism. there are four photos: The outside of the door(2), the door strike and of course the inside of the door. The screws(3) on the outside just turn but nothing happens - as you would want to happen but one might ask, why are they there? When I zoom in on the key hole (remember the key doesn't even start to enter key slot) - I noticed what might be a little corrosion build up at the top of the key slot - possibly the problem. Regarding the door strike I removed the two screws not present and I did back out the larger screw / bolt until it stopped but didn't want to force anything so I put it back in to shut the door. And then there is the inside and those screws just turn like the outside ones but do not come out - interesting. The handles and dead bolt knob do not have any set screws.

It's been a while since I removed the cylinder on my door. The 3rd screw, just below the bolt, holds the cylinder into the lock mortise. The other two screws (top/bottom) just hold the mortise assembly into the door. It's a very long screw. It's possible yours has corrosion on the far side of the screw. That would explain the bolt feeling tight while extracting it. You'd be backing the corroded end into the cylinder frame.

If you've got some penetrating oil, get some onto the screw and work it back in/out. DO NOT USE WD40, as it's not very good for this purpose. Kroil, Liquid Wrench, and like are actual thin penetrating oils intended for the purpose. WD40 is not.

Note, some locks have a cover plate for the strike area, and there are other screws under that to hold the mortise assembly into the door. I never removed the mortise on my starboard door, just from the aft door. The aft door did not have a separate overlaying strike plate, it was fitted to the mortise itself.

I'm assuming you can turn the inside knob to lock/unlock the bolt, yes? It might help to exercise the deadbolt's throw a few times.

I don't recall the lock cylinder screw being problematic to remove from mine.

If I remember correctly, the handles on the aft door came off WITH the faceplates. I had to remove the inside faceplate screws and pull it off WITH the handle attached (it slides onto a square post). The handle was held onto the faceplate with a bracket on the underside of the faceplate. The inner faceplate screws extended through the lock mortise to the outer faceplate.

You probably won't be able to get the inside faceplate off until you remove the lock cylinder. The lock cylinder's inside knob should be removable, but on mine the set screw in it was rusted in solid. I suspect that to re-key the cylinder you'd have to get the inner handle removed. I was fortunate that the numbering on the cylinder (and one of my keys) was sufficient to get Kroon to make me a new key. The annoying thing is the stern door uses a Wilka key, the starboard uses a Kroon. No idea why they're not the same. But that's how "boats" go sometimes.

 

[wkearney99]

My advice, back out the lock cylinder's long retaining screw. Once that's out you should be able to pull on the inside handle of the lock cylinder and work it out of the door. Once that's out you should be able to remove the inside faceplate screws and handle.

I'm thinking your screws might go inside-to-outside. They could be 'chicago' or 'sex' bolts. That is, the inside is a regular philips head machine screw. But the outside are threaded sockets with the slotted head. You'd need two screwdrivers, one philips inside, one slotted outside.

 

[kernr]

Locking Mech - Kroon

whearney99 -

Thanks for all of your experience on this mechanism. especially the thoughts on the outside and inside screws - that would make perfect sense as to why with one screw driver on the inside or outside the screws just turn but nothing happens - I did not think to look at the inside screw while turning the outside screw - that would have told me right away what was going on. I will give all this a try and let you know what I find. Boats - you gotta love them!!

Thanks again,
Bob
Serenity

 

[wkearney99]

Boats - you gotta love them!!

Yup. It's a never-ending learning experience with boats. Plenty of "how the ...", "what the...", "where the eff did that/does that piece go..." moments.

The latter being really important. When you're taking stuff apart mind where the pieces might fall and bounce overboard. Those socketed head bolts are tedious to find in the right dimensions/finish.

 

[kernr]

Kroon Lock Cylinder

Well I was able to get to boat today and get the lock cylinder off of the Starboard door. It actual came off pretty easy. The screws on the face plate were of the type mentioned by wkearney99 where one bolt fits into the other - pretty smart. The retaining bolt for the lock cylinder came all the way out without a problem. Now I have the problem that the key does not insert into the lock cylinder by more than about 1/16". I am trying to think through should i just let it sit for a while with penetrating oil in it or is there a tool I could use to help free things up. BTW the numbers on the lock cylinder you can see in photo match the numbers on the key - so it is definitely the correct key. I don't see any damage to the key hole from the photos magnified. It must be that the tumblers are corroded and frozen in place. Any ideas?

Bob

 

[kernr]

Kroon Lock Cylinder

Well after soaking in a penetrating oil for two days nothing is moving and the tumblers seem frozen in place. The key still does not enter key hole. I even took it to a lock smith and they were sympathetic but of no help - not even a suggestion as to what could be done and they are a really good operation so I am told. Not sure what to do at this point.

Anyone know how to take a lock cylinder apart. I see a thru pin near inside knob but once that comes out (if it does) what's next?

Bob

 

[bayview]

Use wd40 and shove a small wire in and out of the key slot.

WD40 is a solvent oil is not

 

[kernr]

Kroon Lock Cylinder

Hi all -

Well I thought I would almost wrap up this adventure. After taking the lock cylinder to a lock smith and getting no help there I decided to take a week and just keep working the lock with penetrating oil and various foreign objects to free up the lock cylinder. At this point I have given up it is really frozen or the tumblers are cocked so bad or springs shot. I guess I am not surprised it has a cover over the key hole but still after 12 years of salt air and FL humidity - it is badly broken.

I wrote Kroon and they very nicely (polite) informed me the lock cylinder supplier to them is in bankruptcy and they would inform me when or if they start back up. So I contacted Malaysia and my friends at GB Inc. They have it in stock and will send it out shortly. They sent me a photo of lock cylinder with keys and it is a perfect match - got to love those guys. Very helpful!!

So when I get my lock cylinder Xmas present and make sure it works I will take the old one apart and send photos out of the insides. One more message to follow to wrap this one up and on to the next learning episode.

Best,
Bob
"Serenity"
GB 47 Europa
Hull #50

 

[wkearney99]

I wrote Kroon and they very nicely (polite) informed me the lock cylinder supplier to them is in bankruptcy and they would inform me when or if they start back up.

Yikes, so we'd all better take care of our lock sets!

So I contacted Malaysia and my friends at GB Inc. They have it in stock and will send it out shortly.

I've also had great luck getting info and small parts from the factory.

 

[rgano]

Think graphite for long-term maintenance.

 

[SteveK]

May have missed it, but have you tried heat. boil it in water for 10-15 minutes or use a torch

 

[kernr]

Kroon Lock Cylinder

Soo-valley - Thank you for the idea. Since I have purchased a new lock cylinder from GB I will try your idea on the old one before trying to take it apart and taking some photos of what I find and what I perceive is a badly corroded internal tumbler system.

 

[kernr]

Kroon Lock Cylinder

wkearny99 -

Since you have taken the time to dismantle one or both of your locks I have a question. The spindle that the inside and outside door handles mount on - how does it come out of the lock mechanism? I believe since the metal around the spindle looks to be different from the lock mechanism metal that it must screw out of the mechanism. When examining it earlier today I stopped myself from exerting too much force on it because it both looks badly corroded on the outside and I wasn't positive of correct disassembly. But I do know it must come apart to get the mortice lock mechanism out of the door. I also did not have any "Free All" with me to loosen things (corrosion) up. See attached photos of lock mechanism spindle. I do not know why they are turned sideways but you get the idea.

The reason I need to get mechanism out is that the new lock cylinder I got from GB Malaysia does not seem to work properly. The old lock cylinder inside knob threw the dead bolt but with the new lock cylinder neither the inside knob nor the key operate the dead bolt. Saga continues.
Bob

 

[wkearney99]

wkearny99 -

Since you have taken the time to dismantle one or both of your locks I have a question. The spindle that the inside and outside door handles mount on - how does it come out of the lock mechanism? I believe since the metal around the spindle looks to be different from the lock mechanism metal that it must screw out of the mechanism. When examining it earlier today I stopped myself from exerting too much force on it because it both looks badly corroded on the outside and I wasn't positive of correct disassembly. But I do know it must come apart to get the mortice lock mechanism out of the door. I also did not have any "Free All" with me to loosen things (corrosion) up. See attached photos of lock mechanism spindle. I do not know why they are turned sideways but you get the idea.

The reason I need to get mechanism out is that the new lock cylinder I got from GB Malaysia does not seem to work properly. The old lock cylinder inside knob threw the dead bolt but with the new lock cylinder neither the inside knob nor the key operate the dead bolt. Saga continues.

From what I remember the square shaft slid out when one or the other handles was removed. I seem to recall one of the handles was integral to the faceplate. That is, the faceplate had to be removed and the handle came with it. That left the shaft in the lock mortise, attached to the handle on the other side. Removing that faceplate revealed a set-screw in the collar of the handle that held it onto the shaft. It seems a bit convoluted but I think the point was to keep corrosion sensitive connections like set-screws away from direct exposure.

The lock assembly has a turning cam that spins around and lifts against the mechanism in the lock mortise.

At least that's how it worked in the aft door on my EB47.

 

[wkearney99]

I see you've still got the shaft in the lock mortise, right? How did the handles come off the shaft? The one picture you have here doesn't seem to show anything like a circlip on that side. But the picture doesn't show the whole circumference of where the shaft fits through the mortise. What does it look like on the other side?

And since you've had corrosion issues, have you tried some LIGHT taps on the shaft to see if it moves? It could be just frozen in the mortise. Don't BANG on it as you'd likely risk the lock mortise putting enough pressure on the door wood to crack it.

Have you been able to find any distinguishing marks on the handles or faceplate? That might help point the way through something like Izarwaren's catalog to find a possible parts diagram.

 

[Greg S]

Please, do not use heat on the lock cylinder. If you have access to an ultrasonic cleaner, put the cylinder in there for an hour or so. (I've had them in for 24 hours before, a bit much usually.) Maybe have "Salt Away" or similar salt dissolving solution. Do not use a flammable solution in an ultrasonic cleaner. I used to have a laboratory style cleaner, many $$$. It quit working and I replaced it with a denture and jewelry cleaner from a drug store. Actually worked better because I was doing small batches/items and cost about 60 bucks (a few years ago), and I don't mean boat bucks.

European lock cylinders are correctly installed upside down compared to North American style. The springs and "top pins" are now on the bottom and allow any debris, dust and moisture to enter the fine tolerance pin holes. Salt water mist will enter due to gravity and cause salt related corrosion in the pin hole. There isn't tolerance to allow for this and let the pin be pushed into the hole.
Working on the cylinder will eventually allow movement but the fine silicon-bronze springs might need replacing. If they are collapsed, even though there is free movement of the pins in the lock, they won't push the pins back into place against the cuts in the key, so won't unlock. Turning the lock so the pins are up might allow gravity to lower the pins. Might not too.

New cylinder won't operate the deadbolt? I can't tell you if it is related BUT on a domestic deadbolt like in your house or door of your store-front, to install a new lock the deadbolt has to be engaged (protruding) to properly "time" the lock mechanism to the throw of the bolt.

GS

 

[kernr]

Kroon Lock Cylinder

wkearney99 & Greg S. -

Thanks for you inputs - very helpful. It has been about 32 F up here in the Newport, RI area today. I did get over to the boat and fortunately after spraying the handle post with "Free All" I was able to tap the post out allowing me to get the mortice lock set out of the door before my hands got numb. Bill, you were correct again it just taps out but it was sort of corroded in there. BTW both of my door handles stay with the plates - so when the plates are unscrewed the handles come off the post and stay with plates.

I actually woke up last night thinking about why the new lock cylinder wouldn't work. (Pretty sad Huh). Basically the width of the mortice container block was not allowing the turning cam on the lock cylinder from turning and the new lock cylinder cam is 3/4 of a mm wider per mic than the old cam - see attached photo. So if I loosen the mortice screws (4) the lock works and if I tighten them normally it doesn't. So much for the plug compatible lock cylinder. So I have three choices: (1) leave screws lose or, (2) try to file down the width of the cam or, (3) take it to a lock smith at this point and get professional assistance. More to come to get this lock working.

So I decided to take the mortice case apart and you can definitely see where the cam is rubbing hard against the case. Now for the old lock cylinder. I took the two clip washers off from each side of the cam - the inside knob and its cylinder with a spring in it came off easily along with a small brass piece that I think pushes against the spring plus engages with the cam when the key fits properly and allows the turning of the key to also turn the cam to engage the deadbolt. I still could not get the key into the key slot so I started tapping the key (after a week of being soaked in various penetrating oils) and guess what - after several pretty good taps the key inserted and turned to allow the key cylinder to come out. See photos. After looking at the small lugs that sit on top of springs I think they need to be replaced with new ones and I will have a spare lock cylinder. This is a lock from Kroon in the Netherlands - springs are definitely on the bottom but I agree it would be better from a corrosion standpoint if they were on top.

Hopefully there will only be one more message with the results of a visit to lock smith.

Best,
Bob

 

[BruceK]

Bob, looks like you missed your calling as a locksmith!

 

[kernr]

Kroon Lock Cylinder

Bruce K -

Just trying to learn the details of the boat a system at a time. Brought up that way in US Navy submarines. The whole submarine was too complex until you broke it down system by system - much more understandable that way. Locks have always fascinated me in their detail.

Bob

 

[kernr]

Kroon Lock Cylinder

All -

One more winter project done. I did go to the lock smith this morning with the lock set and he stated he didn't have the correct tools to fix the old lock cylinder and it would take him about 2 hours at $86/hr to fix w/o tools - so he said he didn't think it was worth it.

Regarding the new lock cylinder we agreed the best fix was to file down the cam sides so they did not rub against the case. I have since done that and it works great. Plan is to clean it up and put it back on the door.

This lock smith was good and also took the handle and tightened the spring of the key hole cover so we get less spray into key hole.

Good outcome and thanks to all that contributed.
Especially Wkearney99 who started the thread a ways back.

Bob