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Old 11-28-2020, 11:03 PM   #41
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OP. I think if I took that boat to a yard to be fixed at say KKMI, that boat would easy eat up a hundred grand in over a few months. I'm sure I could spend $200k on it without really trying too hard either. And that is assuming it is structurally sound. And after I spent that money, it would still be a wooden boat that requires a massive amount of expensive/time consuming maintenance, is difficult to insure, hard to find yards to haul it, and would have meager resale value. If you think you are going to bypass this work by using 12 dollar an hour workers, your not thinking clearly. Carpentry takes time. Quality marine carpentry takes a lot of time. A marine carpenter has a set of skills that takes years if not decades to aquire. If you are about ROI, this is not a good investment, especially if you value your time. If you are about boating, this is not a good investment either as you will spend a massive amount of time on/around your boat "not" boating. I guess my advice to you is to answer logically is "why this particular boat?" There are lots of boats out there that will get you on the water in an efficient manner that are neither overly expensive or time consuming?

PS do you know what is involved rebuilding your born warner velvet drive transmission?
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Old 11-28-2020, 11:37 PM   #42
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OP. I think if I took that boat to a yard to be fixed at say KKMI, that boat would easy eat up a hundred grand in over a few months. I'm sure I could spend $200k on it without really trying too hard either. And that is assuming it is structurally sound. And after I spent that money, it would still be a wooden boat that requires a massive amount of expensive/time consuming maintenance, is difficult to insure, hard to find yards to haul it, and would have meager resale value. If you think you are going to bypass this work by using 12 dollar an hour workers, your not thinking clearly. Carpentry takes time. Quality marine carpentry takes a lot of time. A marine carpenter has a set of skills that takes years if not decades to aquire. If you are about ROI, this is not a good investment, especially if you value your time. If you are about boating, this is not a good investment either as you will spend a massive amount of time on/around your boat "not" boating. I guess my advice to you is to answer logically is "why this particular boat?" There are lots of boats out there that will get you on the water in an efficient manner that are neither overly expensive or time consuming?

PS do you know what is involved rebuilding your born warner velvet drive transmission?
This seems a bit overstated. I could take my lift-kept, maintained to within an inch of perfection, perfectly functional in all respects, fiberglass boat to any yard you want to name and turn it over to the "pros" who would proceed to identify all sorts of unnecessary tear-down and rebuild projects and charge me 20 grand in a week. But the OP has stated he is a handy guy not afraid to tackle technical and mundane jobs alike. He is not about to take the boat to a yard and throw his checkbook in the door and walk away. Had he stated so, I would never have recommended he go ahead with a refurb of what appears to be a highly functional vessel.
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Old 11-28-2020, 11:43 PM   #43
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Thats called 'sagged'. Hogged -ends droop. Sagged -midships droops.
Yup. And hogging is because there is less buoyancy on the pointy ends.

I say the OP has a reasonable outlook particularly if he shoots for good enough as opposed to perfection.

My general thoughts are that people on forums are often enthusiasts and a little OCD. People who don't care enough to do things properly aren't "here" or they just browse to seek enough information to do the task at hand.

I would speculate that most of the regulars here have boats that are likely the jewel in the marina.

If you are ok with a "runner", the boat gets a passing survey, and like to tinker (as I do) I think it would be a fun and challenging project for a minimal capital expense. As long as you exhibit restraint toward making it "as new" again.

Good from far, but far from good.
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Old 11-29-2020, 12:26 AM   #44
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This seems a bit overstated. I could take my lift-kept, maintained to within an inch of perfection, perfectly functional in all respects, fiberglass boat to any yard you want to name and turn it over to the "pros" who would proceed to identify all sorts of unnecessary tear-down and rebuild projects and charge me 20 grand in a week. But the OP has stated he is a handy guy not afraid to tackle technical and mundane jobs alike. He is not about to take the boat to a yard and throw his checkbook in the door and walk away. Had he stated so, I would never have recommended he go ahead with a refurb of what appears to be a highly functional vessel.
Well, I don't think it is overstated. Like you said if the yard fixed everything it would amount to a lot of money. I can point to a dozen exterior solid wood pieces on any GB that would take a weekend each to roughly fabricate, never mind finish and varnish or paint. Heck, measuring for and buying a single piece of teak can take you all day and you'll still likely won't get the piece of teak the same day. But the OP is trying to do the major work himself and with 12 dollar an hour labor (in the bay area = unskilled non English speaking undocumented aliens) And the OP is an admitted Porsche guy who don't typically settle for things done half assed.

BTW, was it Wayne who told you he had a guy for 35 bucks an hour?
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Old 11-29-2020, 12:54 AM   #45
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I own a 32 GB woody. I love wooden boats and embrace the notion of being a caretaker and paying it forward. If the boat you describe is in the condition you describe, I can only say that you should never, ever buy it.
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Old 11-29-2020, 12:55 AM   #46
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[QUOTE=BTW, was it Wayne who told you he had a guy for 35 bucks an hour?[/QUOTE]

That has an interesting tone, I mean for text on the web.....

35 x 5 x 10 x 12 = 21,000

Not a "woodie" guy, though I have done a couple of cars and appreciate those who choose to make the efforts to keep them up and operational. Rust is the enemy of cars, weather is the enemy of boats. Plan accordingly....and keep us posted!
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Old 11-29-2020, 11:34 AM   #47
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To the OP.

$12K for a rough boat, big project.

Or

$19K for a boat that is much closer to ready to cruise. Grand Banks - $19,500 (Bainbridge Island)

Of course it's impossible to tell from pic on Craigslist but she looks well cared for and squared away. The biggest concern I see from the posting is 7400 hrs on the main. With your mechanical experience this should not be a concern. Yes, she's up north, but the trip down the coast in the right weather is not a problem.
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Old 11-29-2020, 12:11 PM   #48
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Having spent years of often working on many types of wood boats [during late 50's thru mid 70's]. I also worked for a while in a new boat manufacturer that built both wood and fiberglass boats. I understand wood boat build-out, wood boat needs... and most importantly... when a wood boat's conditions should be considered time to perform that boat's burial.

And, having been offered [for just a couple grand $$$ which = "nearly" free] a 42' wood GB in San Rafael a few years ago... upon which I spent hours doing my own inspection - I warn you due to what you depicted in your very first post:

Run!!! Forest - RUN!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-29-2020, 12:43 PM   #49
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I totally agree(finally) with this poster.
As I stated, my boat has went thru a tornado ��, partial sinking, and who knows what else in her 51 years on the water.
IF you do indeed enjoy tinkering,although a wood boat needs a little more than a tinkering to keep her ship shape, and,it depends on your definition of tinker(mine is doing a little bit of everything) then your probably ok.
As to the point of just exactly you can "live with",there are a few things you need to consider
1. This will never be new again
2. You can't make it new again
3. Are you able to find a "stopping point"?
The last thing ,a stopping point, is the most important. When I was replacing termite eaten planks,ribs,frames,in the 45ft Matthews, the further I went,the further I wanted to go. After I finished the 20 some feet on the stbd side, the transom, and ,as i was starting to tear into the port side, the owner of Turner Marina in Mobile, on the Dog River,(the old man,not Prince)he drove up to me one day and said"Mike,you've got to find a stopping point,something that you can live with". He explained that,although he didn't mind me being there,working on my boat on the hard,back towards the fueling area, and loved the money that i was paying, he explained that if i kept going,I'd end up where i started. It's a never ending thing with a woodie. There is ALWAYS something to fix,or chalk, or sand. But,it's a labor of love.
As for the windows, I am lucky. All of my windows have been replaced with aluminum window frames,and my entire superstructure has been covered with fiberglass. So,that's one worry I don't have.
Anyway, good luck,keep us informed.
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Old 11-29-2020, 02:37 PM   #50
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- Rot and structural issues below the waterline. Yup, this scares me. This is moving into the unknown on costs, time, probabilities, etc. I dont have enough information here. Whats the maintenance schedule, risk factors, likely issues you run into, etc. All I know is there are yards in the delta that focus on wood boats and are more affordable. So this requires more digging and would be the primary go/no go line on the survey.
Rot below the waterline is unlikely as, I believe, fungus does not tolerate the salt. I have had to replace a couple of planks above-the-waterline but below they are solid.

You should be able to identify structural issues in a survey with the boat out of the water. Have some fasteners pulled, just in case.

I bought my current boat, old and wooden, because it was in superb condition for its age, not because it was cheap.

If you are, like me, willing to buy a wooden boat, take advantage of the general attitude against old wooden boat and get one that, while still cheap, is in good condition.
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Old 11-29-2020, 06:21 PM   #51
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Your comparison of a car to a boat is slightly flawed. Say you have a car with bad brakes, you don't exactly know what is wrong with them but you know they are bad. Upon investigation the mechanic tells you it is not just brake pads but you need new rotors in front and drums in back. Several of the lines are leaking and brittle, the power brake booster is shot and one of your brake lights is burned out. Your car is ten years old and a pretty decent car, you decide to go ahead with a complete front to back brake job. $2,500 dollars later you say ouch and drive away with everything fixed.

Now, you take your boat in because the engine sputters at a certain rpm. The qualified mechanic tells you the injector pump and the injectors need to be rebuilt. He also noticed some crud in the fuel and upon investigating he found rust in a fuel tank, looks like a leak developing. And oh yea, the fuel filters need changing and those little filters are not enough for the engine, suggests a couple of new Raycors. No, you don't need an on board polishing system but it wouldn't hurt to have the fuel polished. All together the bill will run you about $25,000. There are a few things you could do yourself like maybe pull the injector pump and injectors, maybe change the filters but that is about it and that will take you four days and will lower the bill by a grand or two.

See the difference? By the way, I let you off easy on the repair bill on your boat because I didn't include new decks where the old ones leaked water onto your fuel tanks and a few other things which would probably be discovered.

Maybe you are really a pretty qualified mechanic and woodworker and could do most of the boat job yourself. It would take you all summer and you would miss a lot of boating. You would still have to take the pump and injectors into a diesel shop for about a $1,500 rebuild, buy or fabricate a new fuel tank and buy the new Raycors and pay to have the fuel polished.

Boating can be expensive.

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Old 11-29-2020, 09:14 PM   #52
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Your comparison of a car to a boat is slightly flawed. Say you have a car with bad brakes, you don't exactly know what is wrong with them but you know they are bad. Upon investigation the mechanic tells you it is not just brake pads but you need new rotors in front and drums in back. Several of the lines are leaking and brittle, the power brake booster is shot and one of your brake lights is burned out. Your car is ten years old and a pretty decent car, you decide to go ahead with a complete front to back brake job. $2,500 dollars later you say ouch and drive away with everything fixed.

Now, you take your boat in because the engine sputters at a certain rpm. The qualified mechanic tells you the injector pump and the injectors need to be rebuilt. He also noticed some crud in the fuel and upon investigating he found rust in a fuel tank, looks like a leak developing. And oh yea, the fuel filters need changing and those little filters are not enough for the engine, suggests a couple of new Raycors. No, you don't need an on board polishing system but it wouldn't hurt to have the fuel polished. All together the bill will run you about $25,000. There are a few things you could do yourself like maybe pull the injector pump and injectors, maybe change the filters but that is about it and that will take you four days and will lower the bill by a grand or two.

See the difference? By the way, I let you off easy on the repair bill on your boat because I didn't include new decks where the old ones leaked water onto your fuel tanks and a few other things which would probably be discovered.

Maybe you are really a pretty qualified mechanic and woodworker and could do most of the boat job yourself. It would take you all summer and you would miss a lot of boating. You would still have to take the pump and injectors into a diesel shop for about a $1,500 rebuild, buy or fabricate a new fuel tank and buy the new Raycors and pay to have the fuel polished.

Boating can be expensive.

pete
Brake jobs and boat work is more expensive than I would have guessed in Wisconsin.
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Old 11-30-2020, 01:40 AM   #53
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Check the bow stem from 1' plus below water line to its very top. Check the transom completely. Check the stringers well - especially near motor mounts and where they meet the transom.

Those three structural items are where rot often lurks and hides a bit below the surface. Do you have any idea what it takes to repair any one of these locations... or two... or all three?? I do; it ain't pretty $$$ wise and/or effort/time wise.

Keep a really sharp ice pick with you... a small hammer... and, a moisture meter. The meter will appraise. The hammer will provide soundings. The pick will prove it!

Best Luck!
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Old 11-30-2020, 08:13 AM   #54
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Old wood boats often have a short term last owner who loves but doesn't understand them and is eventually greatly disappointed.

There are some wood experts who know what they are doing and dedicate themselves to the care and restoration of old wood boats. I admire them greatly but never again.
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Old 11-30-2020, 08:33 AM   #55
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Welcome

I think most of us have been in this position. The love of boats sometimes blinds the reality. I just feel that you would be 50k+ trying to get her back to seaworthiness. What about if you were to double your investment elsewhere and tried looking for a boat that needs a lot less for 30k. I think you would be in much better shape and would be cruising much sooner. My 2 cents worth and best of luck.
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Old 11-30-2020, 05:53 PM   #56
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A boat is hogged when she's 'pulled up' midships and 'droops' on the ends. The rigging at the chain plates pulls the hull in that area up relative to the rest of the boat. Usually noticed at the sheer line.
Hogged applies at least equally to boats without chainplates, ie, power boats with enough soft frames and/or planks that it can't maintain its shape and the ends droop, the keel is bent, the sheer line sags......
When you see one, you will wonder how it stays afloat.
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Old 11-30-2020, 07:26 PM   #57
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For woodie boat followers look up;

BBC
Future Planet
The futuristic cargo ship made of wood.

It’s about young people building an all wood ship in Costa Rica.
100% sail and electric for those inclined.

www.bbc.com/future planet
Then look for future planet again
Then look for the article.
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Old 11-30-2020, 08:44 PM   #58
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Hogged applies at least equally to boats without chainplates, ie, power boats with enough soft frames and/or planks that it can't maintain its shape and the ends droop, the keel is bent, the sheer line sags......
When you see one, you will wonder how it stays afloat.
When a big ol' woodie gets hogged it's end of the line for that gal. For a short ride I've was aboard a 57' Chris that had become hogged. Stringers had rot and bottom fasteners were in poor condition. The really sad effect [besides that her death was quite near] was poor handling capabilities at just standard cruise speed. Guess the warp [hogged shape] changing flow of water under the hull was the culprit. She was considerably hogged.

Big ol' woodie I saw dismantled on the hard, due to rot that let her hull hog, was a Pacemaker. That boat had rot everywhere.
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Old 11-30-2020, 09:22 PM   #59
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bayview hit it on the head. Often wooden boats pass to owners with little money and sometimes no wood knowledge. They critically damage a wooden boat in two manners, Sloppy repairs ad delayed maintenance. Both spell eventual death or extremely high restoration expense

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Old 11-30-2020, 10:57 PM   #60
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Pete I agree w bayview too.
When a wood boat is blocked up on the hard keel hogging needs to be considered. One may be able to correct some degree of hogging but it takes knowledge and experience. If I was blocking up a hogged boat I’d block it so more weight was applied to the ends.

Also some boats have straight keels and some have rocker (convexity) and while blocking one should know how much.

I made a dumb mistake assuming my Willard’s keel was straight. I put her on a straight tidal grid and when the tide went out I found that fwd and aft there was a 1” gap between the keel and the grid beams. Scared me half to death. All 8 tons was resting on one spot in the middle. Thought the boat may crack and sink .... or whatever. I carefully hammered in some wedge’s at the ends to take some weight off. When the tide came back in I was nervous but all for naught. The Willard is a strong boat.

But wood boat knowledge is almost gone now. Just mention wood boat on TF and the most common word response is “run”.
Hardly anybody understands them. And most all people are afraid of the unknown ... like the dark. There are some younger men that are adventurous enough to respond to their attraction to the beauty and lore of wood boats ... like Bob Coffer.

However most of what one must know w wood boats is just applying a lot of common sense. Just knowing that wood expands w wet leads to many jumping off points. Common knowledge leads us to ask “what happens when that plank gets wet and expands” ... to the plank above and below. _That leads to screws and caulking ... and so on.

But haha what should one do when encountering a hogged keel boat. Well IMO if it’s considerably hogged .... run. Well if there’s not much rot there are things one can do. But it takes time and patience.
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