ZF85A Fluid Results from Survey

[mvweebles]

I guarantee you I could go through any marina in Florida and if I were to pull oil samples on every boat in there at least 15%, probably more, would fail. Not because the engines have been sunk, not because the engines are in bad shape, but only because they have old, nasty oil in them.

Well, maybe I can learn something today. Can you point me to some sort of technical white paper that states that old oil stagnant oil degrades even when not used? My understanding is that oil - being dead dinosaurs and all - is pretty stable stuff and doesn't deteriorate markedly due to age. TBN may change a bit due to acids forming, but contaminants don't just sprout and grow. Your premise seems to be that everything is fine just old oil doesn't test well - perhaps you can point me to the research that led you to that conclusion. Given your past as being a broker, perhaps I just jumped to conclusions about a broker trying to remove a possible pothole in the sales' process by masking a material condition.

Peter

 

[Each finger a marlinspike]

An oil sample is most reflective of engine condition at the end of its change interval. Yes, the tester will scale/interpret based on hrs on the oil, but a low hours sample will be minimally reflective of condition. An engine isn’t going to shed metal particles while turned off, so time will have little effect on the sample, or little effect on the things we car about. Changing the oil so the sample only has a few hours on it will mask all but the most badly damaged engine, and I think is an intentional “hand on the scale”.

Condensation (I live in Florida) builds when the oil sits. Old oil, even with low hours, shows up as having water in it and then all you guys would be freaking out about how the engine must have sunk or it's got leaks in the heat exchanger, etc...

And yes, it is a "hand on the scale". There are a ton of hands on the scale as a boat goes through the sales process. That's what makes surveying so hard. Sellers dry up the leaks from the rain the day before the survey. They intentionally pack a bunch of heavy **** in front of the areas they know have a problem. They paint over problems. Sellers/Brokers limit the amount of time the surveyor will have on the boat. Haulouts happen at places the surveyor can't get a ladder to tap out a cored hull. Sellers won't let the boat run at Wide Open Throttle for 3 minutes (yes I read that thread with interest and laughter). Isn't that putting a "hand on the scale"? What if the seller knows his engine will overheat at WOT? Should we assume the seller is dishonest if he won't run his engine at WOT?

 

[Each finger a marlinspike]

perhaps you can point me to the research that led you to that conclusion.

Hard earned experience. Seeing it happen too many times, talking to many other surveyors.

FYI I hated being a broker. This was one of the many reasons. Boat goes to survey, fails oil sample. Buyer walks. Broker doesn't get paid. Seller changes oil, puts sufficient hours on oil. Next buyer shows up, oil sample fine. Boat sells, broker finally gets paid.

 

[mvweebles]

Hard earned experience. Seeing it happen too many times, talking to many other surveyors.

FYI I hated being a broker. This was one of the many reasons. Boat goes to survey, fails oil sample. Buyer walks. Broker doesn't get paid. Seller changes oil, puts sufficient hours on oil. Next buyer shows up, oil sample fine. Boat sells, broker finally gets paid.

HERE is a sample Blackstone oil analysis report. About 2-dozen parameters tested. One of them is pure water (vs sodium/sea water or glycol/antifreeze). With possible exception of TBN, I don't see how old oil would read differently.

Re: your examples of old oil failing a test and new oil in same engine passing a test. There are two explanations. Your explanation is the the engine is not damaged, just the oil is old and magically developed lead, copper, sodium.....whatever. No bearing wear, nothing. Just old oil.

The other explanation is there is indeed abnormal or excessive wear, but removing the oil will mask because it will hopefully take time for the components to wear and re-contaminate the oil. By then, sale will be complete, broker paid.......

If that's what it took to be successful, I can certainly understand why you hated being a broker

Peter

 

[sunchaser]

All said, the OP provided a set of questions regarding a silly statement presumably made by the Seller as to why a gear had a bad oil sample. I walked away from a very nice vessel some years ago then the Seller and the broker tried to convince me that a bad gear sample was nothing more than a change the oil and check it again after we'd BOUGHT the boat.

I said change the gear and cooler on Seller's dime within a short time frame or I'd walk. What else about the boat were they hiding was a foremost thought.

 

[Bacchus]

I've got no problem with people questioning my knowledge, but when you question my ethics those are fighting words.

It's not "hiding" a potential issue. If there is an issue it will show up. The only thing it is avoiding is misleadingly bad results. Look at Steve D's article that you posted, he goes through how the same levels in oil that is normal with 100 hours would be a problem in oil with 20 hours. But a surprising number of boaters don't log their oil changes, boats sit on the market (when I was a broker) for years. Knowing when the oil was changed, how many hours are on it, is not deceptive in any way.

I guarantee you I could go through any marina in Florida and if I were to pull oil samples on every boat in there at least 15%, probably more, would fail. Not because the engines have been sunk, not because the engines are in bad shape, but only because they have old, nasty oil in them. Counseling a client to not be one of the 15% is the brokers job. Just like telling him that his boat stinks and he needs to get rid of the head smell. Just like telling him his engine is a rusty piece of **** and he needs to clean and paint it if he wants his price. Presenting the boat in the best possible light is the listing brokers job.

Deceptive is changing the hour meter. Deceptive is lying about how many hours are on the oil. Deceptive is lying about anything.

Changing the oil is not lying. I don't lie and I don't deceive. I don't EVER tell others to do those things. F you guys for even suggesting it.

Andy
I'm having a hard time putting much credibility in your recommendation for providing an "honest" oil analysis. I completely understand that as long as seller provides accurate info they are not being deceitful but I ( and I believe others) feel that the seller is masking any latent problems with a sample of fresh oil with little run time. Not deceitful... just not very useful!

Do you believe an oil sample with 5 - 10 run hours on the oil will provide a good and complete indicators of the engine and any latent problems?

Can you show me a lab recommendation or industry that samples oils with 5-10 hours of use?

I see you are a surveyor (I'm assuming boat not engine) but would you counsel potential buyers (paying for your services) that an oil sample with 5-10 hours represents a full an accurate picture of the engine condition and if it comes out acceptable the engine is certainly in good shape?

I believe it is common knowledge that one oil sample does not provide a complete picture - would / do you recommend to your customers to repeatedly sample their oil after a change, with little run time, instead of before the change to establish trends and the BEST picture?

 

[Each finger a marlinspike]

If that's what it took to be successful, I can certainly understand why you hated being a broker

Peter

Actually it was more the people like this that made me hate it.

I'm far from a buyer - Weebles is likely the last boat I'll own (famous last words). But if I were in the market, would very likely be a pretty standard displacemen/semi-displacement boat in the 50-foot range. Here's how I would approach it (and if I were a seller, I'd be fine with this too).

In the Agreement, I would describe:

1. Approx 3 hour Sea Trial based on the Check List I offered up-thread (re-attached for convenience). Although it's in the document, I would inform broker that I ask the sea trial to be a standalone event, and it should include a WOT test of at least 5-minutes followed by a 30-min run at 80%. Seller to operate the boat. I would take engine oil samples at that time. On more sophisticated boats, I would pay very careful attention to the electronics and integration because it can be incredibly expensive to resolve issues.

2. Mechanical Survey by a marine diesel mechanic, but only after I have accepted the Sea Trial and have the oil analysis in hand. He will need the engines started again, perhaps want WOT test again. I know it's inconvenient, but not out-of-line in my opinion. I would be open to paying the Seller's captain a reasonable hourly fee to return to operate the boat.

3. Hull & Valuation Survey. Only after Steps 1 and 2 are accepted would I schedule the full Survey.

I would probably share the results of each step along the way, but would try not to negotiate until I have all the information. Exception would be if I find something that is a deal killer issue - over-heating during WOT would be one reason. But generally, I would make the seller aware of my findings and then present a revised offer based on the findings at the end. Would be a case-by-case basis.

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

Condensation (I live in Florida) builds when the oil sits. Old oil, even with low hours, shows up as having water in it and then all you guys would be freaking out about how the engine must have sunk or it's got leaks in the heat exchanger, etc...

Big difference between fresh water in the oil and salt water in the oil. Salt water doesn't condense out of the air. This particular boat showed salt water in the gear oil.


As for freaking out and assuming the boat sank, let's put that back in context. I didn't say the boat sank. I said to make sure it didn't because over the last couple of years a LOT of boats sank/swamped due to hurricanes, and those boats are on the market dressed up like lipstick on a pig. Buyers VERY MUCH need to be on the look out for that. When a red flag pops up showing salt water intrusion into a part of the boat where it's really hard for salt water to reach, I think a savvy buyer would confirm the boat is not one of the many injured in recent storms. And when the seller's explanation doesn't hold water (pun intended), it seems cause to check carefully.

And yes, it is a "hand on the scale". There are a ton of hands on the scale as a boat goes through the sales process. That's what makes surveying so hard. Sellers dry up the leaks from the rain the day before the survey. They intentionally pack a bunch of heavy **** in front of the areas they know have a problem. They paint over problems. Sellers/Brokers limit the amount of time the surveyor will have on the boat. Haulouts happen at places the surveyor can't get a ladder to tap out a cored hull. Sellers won't let the boat run at Wide Open Throttle for 3 minutes (yes I read that thread with interest and laughter). Isn't that putting a "hand on the scale"? What if the seller knows his engine will overheat at WOT? Should we assume the seller is dishonest if he won't run his engine at WOT?

Exactly my point. Some sellers and brokers will try all sorts of things to hide or distract from known problems. A savvy buyer knows that not only is it up to him to find any and all problems because there are no disclosure requirements for sellers, but they know that the seller may be actively hiding problems. So yes, a buyer needs to assume the seller and his broker are dishonest, are trying to hide problems with the boat, and will do what they can to keep you from finding them. You have again confirmed what gives sellers and brokers a bad name, because buyers have to assume this is what they are facing.


So as soon as I hear a story that doesn't make sense, or see oil that has obviously been recently changed, or get an oil sample with a multitude of bad numbers, or find crap piled up blocking access to part of the boat, or an owner who won't allow a WOT test, or all the yard ladders hidden behind a building, or a broker who won't shut up the whole time you are inspecting the boat, or a surveyor who doesn't want you around for the survey, or a seller/broker rushing you or otherwise limiting inspection time, I KNOW they are hiding something. And if they are hiding one thing, they are probably hiding a bunch of things. So now I know I need to look even harder, test every story or explanation, and dismiss most everything they tell me about the boat unless I can explicitly verify it.


Contrast that with a seller who welcomes thorough inspection, helps with access to all parts of the boat, has records for all work or questions, a broker who stays out of the way or who only helps, who welcomes a thorough sea trial, who has an oil sample history, etc. They do exist.

 

[Each finger a marlinspike]

Do you believe an oil sample with 5 - 10 run hours on the oil will provide a good and complete indicators of the engine and any latent problems?

Can you show me a lab recommendation or industry that samples oils with 5-10 hours of use?

I personally don't feel that pre-purchase oil samples are ever of very high value. They have "some" value, and they are great for the buyer trying to renegotiate price after a survey but the real value is in trend analysis and a smart owner would run their own samples before listing the boat for sale. I pull lots of them at the request of customers because they are easy to do and not very expensive. I caution buyers to the relative value of them. The owners of the lab I use have personally told me that they can get a good sample with at least 5 hours run time. Of course 20 hours would be better. The ideal scenario is an owner who values maintenance and logs all their work, then this is never an issue. If I survey a boat that I know has been sitting on the hard for 2 years and the oil is black (or clear) I tell them that the oil sample is a waste of money. If I knew the oil had just been changed and only had 2 hours on it I would tell them the sample is a waste of money. If I knew the oil had 150 hours on it and hadn't been changed in a year and a half, I would tell them we could take the sample but don't be surprised if the results are negative.

You can tell a lot more about an engine by looking at it and running it than you can from an oil sample. But oil samples come back with a lot of data, so people like that even if they don't have the proper perspective of what that data means.

 

[Each finger a marlinspike]

Exactly my point. Some sellers and brokers will try all sorts of things to hide or distract from known problems. A savvy buyer knows that not only is it up to him to find any and all problems because there are no disclosure requirements for sellers, but they know that the seller may be actively hiding problems. So yes, a buyer needs to assume the seller and his broker are dishonest, are trying to hide problems with the boat, and will do what they can to keep you from finding them. You have again confirmed what gives sellers and brokers a bad name, because buyers have to assume this is what they are facing.


So as soon as I hear a story that doesn't make sense, or see oil that has obviously been recently changed, or get an oil sample with a multitude of bad numbers, or find crap piled up blocking access to part of the boat, or an owner who won't allow a WOT test, or all the yard ladders hidden behind a building, or a broker who won't shut up the whole time you are inspecting the boat, or a surveyor who doesn't want you around for the survey, or a seller/broker rushing you or otherwise limiting inspection time, I KNOW they are hiding something. And if they are hiding one thing, they are probably hiding a bunch of things. So now I know I need to look even harder, test every story or explanation, and dismiss most everything they tell me about the boat unless I can explicitly verify it.


Contrast that with a seller who welcomes thorough inspection, helps with access to all parts of the boat, has records for all work or questions, a broker who stays out of the way or who only helps, who welcomes a thorough sea trial, who has an oil sample history, etc. They do exist.

I agree with all of that. No different than buying an old car off of craigslist. Nobody knows each other, and any trust should always be at arms length. I approach each survey with the expectation that the seller is trying to hide all kinds of things from me. I don't consider that "dishonest", I expect it and I'm pleasantly surprised when I get a straightforward owner who doesn't get pissed off at me when I find problems. Every buyer should approach every boat like that. But the boat always speaks for itself in the end.

 

[Bacchus]

I personally don't feel that pre-purchase oil samples are ever of very high value....

You can tell a lot more about an engine by looking at it and running it than you can from an oil sample. But oil samples come back with a lot of data, so people like that even if they don't have the proper perspective of what that data means.

So, as a surveyor, do you provide an opinion on the engine based on looking at it and running it?
How can you assess whether or not...
A heat xchanger is degrading and possibly contaminating oil, tranny fluid, etc?
How do you detect minor head gasket leakage?
Eng coolant is ineffective and causing / not preventing erosion?

It's sounds like your advice is aimed at helping sellers avoid any negative disclosures rather than providing any valuable PM recommendations to owners... very different objectives it seems.

We agree trend analysis more informative than a single sample...
Are you proposing a set of samples taken 20 hrs after change are more meaningful that those taken prior to change at say 75 or 100 hrs?

 

[O C Diver]

I personally don't feel that pre-purchase oil samples are ever of very high value. They have "some" value, and they are great for the buyer trying to renegotiate price after a survey but the real value is in trend analysis and a smart owner would run their own samples before listing the boat for sale.

While trend analysis may offer some benefits, the one time analysis is very good at spotting catastrophic problems such as what the OP is dealing with.

Some examples would be:
An engine with 5% fuel in the oil.
A transmission with 300 PPM sodium in the oil.
An engine with ethyl glycol in the oil.
An engine with water in the oil.

All are serious problems that don't require multiple samplings to determine a problem exists.

Ted

 

[Each finger a marlinspike]

I never said pre-purchase oil samples were worthless, I said they are of limited value and buyers often over react to the results. The OP is a perfect example of the value gained, he now has a full transmission warranty for his 400 mile ride home with his boat, how many of you got that when you bought? Hopefully he will report back on here the results of the sample taken after his trip home. I'd love to hear how his transmission is doing 6 months, a year from now.

I wonder if it would change any minds if he reports that it is all fine 6 months from now, and that you all over reacted?

While you guys seem to think it's unethical to not have dirty old oil in an engine when it goes up for sale, think about how easy it is for a truly unethical seller to fake the results. They don't even have to go through the work, expense and time of an oil change, they can just lie about the time/hours on the oil. Levels of contaminates that would be normal at 120 hours and 10 month old oil would be high if the oil actually had only 10 hours and 2 months.

Of course none of this matters on well maintained boats when a glance at the engine tells me the date of the last oil change.

I don't understand why the concept of oil analysis as trend analysis being far superior to it's use as a one time assessment of the engine is controversial. I think of it like the annual blood test the doctors take every year. If the results show that you have high cholesterol, how would you like it if your doctor over reacted, said "your going to die, you obviously eat a terrible diet, you're probably going to have a heart attack any minute! If you're lying to me about your diet, you're probably lying about smoking weed, cigarettes, and drinking excessively too!"
But no, your doctor wouldn't do that. What if you forgot to fast and had breakfast that morning and your blood sugar results were off. Should the doctor start you on insulin right away? No, of course not. He'd make sure the test was done properly (change oil and put a fair number of hours on it) then retest.
Even if your test results are out of spec, a doctor won't usually make a diagnosis without checking other things and repeating the results to make sure they are valid.

It's comparing the results over a period of time that tell if you have a gradually increasing problem or if it was a one time event that caused the result you saw.

I haven't even mentioned the problems inherent in the sampling process itself. You've got to get the tube down into the pan, but you don't want to suck from the very bottom either or you can pull sludge/debris into your sample and get a false reading, all while hovering over a hot engine in a (again Florida) often 130 degree engine room with sweat (sodium, water) pouring off of you in buckets.

But again I'll say it, pre-purchase oil analysis does have some value, it's great for renegotiating after survey, it can identify potential problems developing, but the results can also often be misleading. It's a snapshot, like taking a still photo on a crowded street. It will tell you who is there on the street, but you can't tell what the people are doing or how they got there, you need a video for that.

Every boat owner should be taking regular oil/transmission samples whenever they change their oil. Then this whole discussion would be moot as you can just show any potential buyers your oil sampling history.

 

[twistedtree]

While trend analysis may offer some benefits, the one time analysis is very good at spotting catastrophic problems such as what the OP is dealing with.

Some examples would be:
An engine with 5% fuel in the oil.
A transmission with 300 PPM sodium in the oil.
An engine with ethyl glycol in the oil.
An engine with water in the oil.

All are serious problems that don't require multiple samplings to determine a problem exists.

Ted

Exactly, and that's why you change the oil to be sure that doesn't show up until after the sale is done. It's just keeping buyers from jumping to conclusions or freaking out.

 

[mvweebles]

I never said pre-purchase oil samples were worthless, I said they are of limited value and buyers often over react to the results. The OP is a perfect example of the value gained, he now has a full transmission warranty for his 400 mile ride home with his boat, how many of you got that when you bought? Hopefully he will report back on here the results of the sample taken after his trip home. I'd love to hear how his transmission is doing 6 months, a year from now.

I wonder if it would change any minds if he reports that it is all fine 6 months from now, and that you all over reacted?

While you guys seem to think it's unethical to not have dirty old oil in an engine when it goes up for sale, think about how easy it is for a truly unethical seller to fake the results. They don't even have to go through the work, expense and time of an oil change, they can just lie about the time/hours on the oil. Levels of contaminates that would be normal at 120 hours and 10 month old oil would be high if the oil actually had only 10 hours and 2 months.

Of course none of this matters on well maintained boats when a glance at the engine tells me the date of the last oil change.

I don't understand why the concept of oil analysis as trend analysis being far superior to it's use as a one time assessment of the engine is controversial. I think of it like the annual blood test the doctors take every year. If the results show that you have high cholesterol, how would you like it if your doctor over reacted, said "your going to die, you obviously eat a terrible diet, you're probably going to have a heart attack any minute! If you're lying to me about your diet, you're probably lying about smoking weed, cigarettes, and drinking excessively too!"
But no, your doctor wouldn't do that. What if you forgot to fast and had breakfast that morning and your blood sugar results were off. Should the doctor start you on insulin right away? No, of course not. He'd make sure the test was done properly (change oil and put a fair number of hours on it) then retest.
Even if your test results are out of spec, a doctor won't usually make a diagnosis without checking other things and repeating the results to make sure they are valid.

It's comparing the results over a period of time that tell if you have a gradually increasing problem or if it was a one time event that caused the result you saw.

I haven't even mentioned the problems inherent in the sampling process itself. You've got to get the tube down into the pan, but you don't want to suck from the very bottom either or you can pull sludge/debris into your sample and get a false reading, all while hovering over a hot engine in a (again Florida) often 130 degree engine room with sweat (sodium, water) pouring off of you in buckets.

But again I'll say it, pre-purchase oil analysis does have some value, it's great for renegotiating after survey, it can identify potential problems developing, but the results can also often be misleading. It's a snapshot, like taking a still photo on a crowded street. It will tell you who is there on the street, but you can't tell what the people are doing or how they got there, you need a video for that.

Every boat owner should be taking regular oil/transmission samples whenever they change their oil. Then this whole discussion would be moot as you can just show any potential buyers your oil sampling history.

You are welcome to your opinion. But as a broker, you are not welcomed to impose that opinion on a buyer doing due diligence, the net effect of advising a seller to change oil shortly before sea trial to evade deal-killer issues so "broker gets paid" in Post 33. If a buyer wants to walk from a deal, it's their prerogative to do so. They've paid for the privilege to do so. Too bad it interferes with getting paid but that's what commissioned sales people sign-up for.

I’ll bookmark this thread as Exhibit #1 when a newbie comes along seeking a “Buyers Broker.” Unless they pay the broker directly, there’s a good chance they won’t get what they think they’re getting. Interests are not aligned and while some brokers are consultative "today's buyer is tomorrow's seller....", other brokers are transactional and just want to close the deal and get paid. I agree with you and TT - the buyer needs to assume the latter which is too bad because the consultative ones are likely a pleasure to work with.

Peter

 

[Each finger a marlinspike]

You are welcome to your opinion. But as a broker, you are not welcomed to impose that opinion on a buyer doing due diligence, the net effect of advising a seller to change oil shortly before sea trial to evade deal-killer issues

You really should quote me rather than trying to put words in my mouth. My exact quote was "When I was a broker I learned the hard way to tell all my new listings to change the oil/trans fluid and keep it clean until survey. Old oil at survey is a deal killer,"

I would never have told someone to change their oil right before a survey. 'New listings' maybe that's not clear. When a prospective seller would approach me to list their boat I always did a check out of the vessel. If it had been sitting for a long time (often the case) and had high hours on the oil with a long time period, I would advise them to change their oil NOW so that if the vessel goes to survey in a few months they won't get the inevitable "water in the oil" that shows up on every Florida boat when it sits for a long time.

Big difference from what you are trying to accuse me of. And it has nothing to do with a Buyer's broker, I don't know where you get that from other than that you really don't know as much about the normal yacht sales transactions as you think you do.

By all means, feel free to keep old dirty oil in your boat when you sell it. But I bet you won't now.

 

[mvweebles]

You really should quote me rather than trying to put words in my mouth. My exact quote was "When I was a broker I learned the hard way to tell all my new listings to change the oil/trans fluid and keep it clean until survey. Old oil at survey is a deal killer,"

Well, you clipped your own quote - let's look at the entire paragraph:

When I was a broker I learned the hard way to tell all my new listings to change the oil/trans fluid and keep it clean until survey. Old oil at survey is a deal killer, as evidenced by the jumping to extreme conclusions on this thread. Most seem to read "elevated water, sodium" as reason to believe the vessel sank. I see no reason to leap to that conclusion.

First, even when asked, you had nothing but your experience to suggest water would form in the oil while sitting. Second, even if that were true (and it may be), it does not explain sodium. Third, sweeps the baby with bathwater by masking other compounds if present. Again, if the advice were to have the seller analyze the oil then change, I'd be good. But that's not what you are advocating.

No one likes surprises. There are three ways to proactively deal with a surprise so the buyer doesn't freak-out: Fix it, disclose it, or hide it.

Last word is yours Marlinspike -

Peter

 

[Each finger a marlinspike]

No one likes surprises. There are three ways to proactively deal with a surprise so the buyer doesn't freak-out: Fix it, disclose it, or hide it.

If it's a surprise, how would you fix it or be able to disclose it? Or hide it if it's going to be a surprise? You can only fix, disclose or hide what you already know.

I was trying to prevent surprises by recommending a maintenance procedure to prevent the surprise. There's nothing deceptive about changing your oil and recording the hours/date that you do it.

If I know the boat has been sitting with diesel in the tanks for years, and I know the fuel filter has 100 hours on it, is it unethical to recommend that the buyer change the fuel filter so that it has less chance of clogging on the sea trial? Is that hiding a problem or preventing a problem?

What if the water in the water tanks is old and algaed and nasty? If you flush and clean the water tank prior to survey are you 'hiding' a problem or are you preventing one from showing up?

What if you had a port leak and water was dripping down and had partially rotted a nearby bulkhead? Are you 'hiding' a problem by rebedding the port prior to survey?

What if the boat reeks of head smell because of the nasty old hoses? Am I hiding a problem or preventing a problem by recommending that they change the head hoses before selling? How about spraying a fresh scent spray before people visit the boat to mask the smell? Is that deceitful? Are you aghast that people actually do that?

I could go on and on. The point is that a listing broker's job is to help the seller prepare in the best possible way for selling his boat so that he can get its true value when the buyer comes along. Recommending maintenance procedures that prevent surprises at the final moments of the transaction are part of the job.

 

[mvweebles]

...... Recommending maintenance procedures that prevent surprises at the final moments of the transaction are part of the job.

Recommending seller change oil prior to buyer's oil analysis is an odd form of "maintenance procedure."

Peter

 

[Delta Riverat]

I didn't do an "oil survey" during the buying process. Didn't even know you could do that. Yeah, I've never done this before, first and last "big boat"

The engine oil was black when I changed it, the tranny oil was red and looking good.

I figure the they were not changed in over 2 years. In 2 years the PO put 40 hours on the engines...

Yeah, dock queen -

 

[rgano]

I didn't do an "oil survey" during the buying process. Didn't even know you could do that. Yeah, I've never done this before, first and last "big boat"

The engine oil was black when I changed it, the tranny oil was red and looking good.

I figure the they were not changed in over 2 years. In 2 years the PO put 40 hours on the engines...

Yeah, dock queen -

Oil in all my marine diesel my engines has always been black half an hour after changing it because there is probably 20-25% remaining in the oil path after the sump is drained.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I've got 20 hours on them after the oil change and the oil is tan. Not even close to black. You know like you have to look at the stick close -

 

[MYTraveler]

Wow, so you coached your clients to intentionally obscure and interfere with oil testing. That’s a great example of what gives brokers a bad name in the industry.

And distorted the opinions with which he disagreed. There is a big difference between suspecting that a boat may have been partially submerged to believing it sank.

 

[mvweebles]

POST 17:

When I was a broker I learned the hard way to tell all my new listings to change the oil/trans fluid and keep it clean until survey.

POST 43:

...I would never have told someone to change their oil right before a survey.

So which was/is it?

BTW - I too think the sinking/flooding scenario is a bit far fetched, but explains what happens when outlandish explanations are given. The sellers explanation relies on incompetence (mechanic couldn't get the cap back on tranny) and oddball coincidence (water sprayed in at same time - and oil not replaced). "Boat may have sank" really means the seller has lost all credibility and you can't rule-out anything. That's not a buyer problem, it's a seller problem.

 

[mickand]

Salt water (sodium) = corrosion. Seals will fail prematurely. I agree with Ted, don't wait around for this transmission to fail - rebuild it now at the seller's cost.