Mainship Pilot 34 - Play/Looseness in Helm

[aviator7836]

We have a new to us 2005 Mainship Pilot 34 Rumrunner II and noticed during sea trials that there was some play in the helm of about 1/4 turn or so before you feel any back pressure and then the helm begins to respond. In essence, you can turn the wheel freely back and forth for at least a quarter turn (perhaps even more) with no resistance and without anything happening. In a hydraulic system I would have expected immediate pressure and response in either direction. I makes for rather sloppy steering or you have to anticipate it.

Is this a sign that there is air in the system that needs to be bled? Does anyone have any experience with this and is there an easy way to bleed the system at the helm station?

Thanks in advance for any advice and counsel.

Best,
Doug

 

[Comodave]

That is where I would start looking. What brand steering is it?

 

[aviator7836]

Darn Good Question

Comodave, that is a darn good question and I am embarrassed to say that I do not know and cannot readily find out at the moment as I am 500 miles away from the boat for the time being.

 

[Comodave]

I would first check the fluid level and look for leaks. Then find out what brand the steering system is. You may just be able to add fluid and then turn the helm back and forth many times to work out any air bubbles. But reality best to find out make and model and then find a manual. Read how the manufacturer says to bleed the system. If it is low and you don’t find any leaks, I have put paper towels, particularly the blue ones, under each fitting and see if the paper towell has any indication of fluid dripping on it.

 

[Keysdisease]

I'm fairly sure all the Pilots use Sea Star steering. Some of the original 34 Trawlers used Hynautic, but Mainship switched to the Sea Star (Teleflex back then, Dometic today) System by the time Pilots were in production.

If thats the case, the system is vented and (eventually) self bleeding. The fluid level is checked at a cap on top of the helm, should be right to the top. In an established system there should be no air just from being bled from time and use. The steering wheel is on a tapered shaft with a key, so if that was the source it should be apparent.

Except for leaking shaft seals these helms are typically considered replace and not repair.

https://www.dometic.com/en-us/outdoor/boat/marine-steering-systems



This is just one of the helms available, it's a 2 component system, helm and cylinder

 

[backinblue]

I'm fairly sure all the Pilots use Sea Star steering. Some of the original 34 Trawlers used Hynautic, but Mainship switched to the Sea Star (Teleflex back then, Dometic today) System by the time Pilots were in production.

If thats the case, the system is vented and (eventually) self bleeding. The fluid level is checked at a cap on top of the helm, should be right to the top. In an established system there should be no air just from being bled from time and use. The steering wheel is on a tapered shaft with a key, so if that was the source it should be apparent.

Except for leaking shaft seals these helms are typically considered replace and not repair.

https://www.dometic.com/en-us/outdoor/boat/marine-steering-systems



This is just one of the helms available, it's a 2 component system, helm and cylinder

That is exactly what I have. Last season I topped off the fluid using these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07W96Q9F6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08MV6KN4H/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I also purchased this but ended up returning because it was already installed on my boat. There are a number of youtube videos on how to add fluid and bleed.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08MV6NJTP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Arc]

In the sea star system , there are check valves at 3 and 9 o’clock. Access is from the back. If a spring is weak you will get that symptom. Also an auto pilot pump in line may cause it also . Fill helm to top as discussed. Turn slow both ways . When you get hard over apply some good pressure . Repeat 5-6- times.

 

[aviator7836]

Thank you all very much, that is exactly what I needed! I have ordered the hydraulic fluid, filler and bleed tubes and will tackle that little project when we return to the boat in the coming weeks.

Our Pilot 34 was purchased last Fall and is in storage on Oneida Lake for the winter. We plan to voyage home to Maine once the locks open in late May. In the mean time, I am trying to get things ship shape from many miles away with periodic visits to the boat.

I deeply appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge and experience here. You are saving me untold hours and frustration!

Doug

 

[backinblue]

Thank you all very much, that is exactly what I needed! I have ordered the hydraulic fluid, filler and bleed tubes and will tackle that little project when we return to the boat in the coming weeks.

Our Pilot 34 was purchased last Fall and is in storage on Oneida Lake for the winter. We plan to voyage home to Maine once the locks open in late May. In the mean time, I am trying to get things ship shape from many miles away with periodic visits to the boat.

I deeply appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge and experience here. You are saving me untold hours and frustration!

Doug

What is your route to get to Maine? If it includes Long Island Sound, look me up when you're in the area.

 

[aviator7836]

What is your route to get to Maine? If it includes Long Island Sound, look me up when you're in the area.

Thank you, Backinblue, I will absolutely keep that invitation in mind! We plan to take the southern route due to constraints and requirements of elder parental care and other related responsibilities and it will be much easier to stop along the way and return home if necessary going by way of Long Island Sound than it would going up over the top. The Downeast Loop is high on our list of priorities for this boat but it will have to wait for another season. I will put Stratford on the list of stops!

 

[Datenight]

Thank you, Backinblue, I will absolutely keep that invitation in mind! We plan to take the southern route due to constraints and requirements of elder parental care and other related responsibilities and it will be much easier to stop along the way and return home if necessary going by way of Long Island Sound than it would going up over the top. The Downeast Loop is high on our list of priorities for this boat but it will have to wait for another season. I will put Stratford on the list of stops!

Groton, CT (hint, hint) would be another good stop about 85 miles from Stamford. Lots to do here. Mystic, Sub Base, Nautilus. Coast Guard Acad. Lots of good restaurants in New London.

Rob

 

[aviator7836]

Thank you, Rob! We will absolutely endeavor to reach out on our voyage. My wife and I both have spent time in that vicinity at various points in our lives. Lovely area!

 

[Comodave]

Boatsteer.com will rebuild the helm or the hydraulic cylinder. I had them do a hydraulic cylinder on a previous boat and they did a good job. Cheaper than replacing it.

 

[Olebird]

Hello fellow aviator! I have a 30 MS Pilot II and suggest you actually check for rudder movement. My Pilot acts the same way - but hydraulics check out fine, I think its rudder design. The oem rudder is small and in general not very effective particularly at low speeds. I am considering a rudder modification to address the issue - actually modifying the rudder to give it more effectiveness. When I first got it, drove me nuts but i have since learned to cope with it. Can't remember the name of the rudder design (see previous post) - looks like a fairly simple bolt-on mod - got to haul the boat this spring and try it when I do!!

 

[rgano]

My 30 Pilot II has Sea Star steering. DO NOT fill the fluid all the way. Leave just a small amount of air gap under the cap or you will feel the bumpety bump in the wheel as every lobe of the steering pump goes by. I cite this from experience.

 

[Olebird]

good article on the fishtail rudder


Fishtail Rudders Great harbour - Great Harbour Trawlers

 

[backinblue]

Groton, CT (hint, hint) would be another good stop about 85 miles from Stamford. Lots to do here. Mystic, Sub Base, Nautilus. Coast Guard Acad. Lots of good restaurants in New London.

Rob

Noank Shipyard has become a favorite stopping point for us in the last few years. Great marina and great restaurants onsite and next door (Abbotts!)

 

[backinblue]

good article on the fishtail rudder


Fishtail Rudders Great harbour - Great Harbour Trawlers

Seems like that rudder design is more suited to slower displacement boats than it would be for a Pilot.

BTW, it should be easy enough to look and see if the rudder is actually moving with the 1/4 turn of the wheel. Kind of surprised that if this was discovered in the sea trial it wasn't investigated. If you have an autopilot, see if the rudder angle is changing with small movements of the wheel. My a/p display changes with very slight movements of the wheel, so I know the rudder is moving. Whether or not that makes much difference in the response of the boat, I haven't paid particular attention to.

 

[Jeff F]

BTW, it should be easy enough to look and see if the rudder is actually moving with the 1/4 turn of the wheel.

Yeah, I'd have someone turn the wheel and watch the rudder from the inside. Make sure there is no play in the rudder stock or gear.

 

[garmstro55]

Thank you all very much, that is exactly what I needed! I have ordered the hydraulic fluid, filler and bleed tubes and will tackle that little project when we return to the boat in the coming weeks.

Our Pilot 34 was purchased last Fall and is in storage on Oneida Lake for the winter. We plan to voyage home to Maine once the locks open in late May. In the mean time, I am trying to get things ship shape from many miles away with periodic visits to the boat.

I deeply appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge and experience here. You are saving me untold hours and frustration!

Doug

My MS400 had the same sloppy steering, it happened gradually over a few years and wasn't very noticeable until last summer. I took a 1 quart plastic oil bottle and cut in half. Then you screw the oil filler tube to both the fill hole and the bottom of the bottle. Ideally you have another set of hands. Next pour some fluid into the bottle and have someone spin the wheel back and forth. I did something like 10 rotations each direction if I recall correctly. If there is air in the system, it will bubble up the tube and the fluid will go down. I probably had to do 20 or 25 cycles to get all the air out, so don't give up until you don't get any more bubbles. Obviously keep fluid in the bottle as it goes down. Now the steering is very responsive.

 

[Comodave]

Keep in mind that if you have to add hydraulic fluid to the steering than you have a leak somewhere. The fluid doesn’t evaporate.

 

[aviator7836]

My MS400 had the same sloppy steering, it happened gradually over a few years and wasn't very noticeable until last summer. I took a 1 quart plastic oil bottle and cut in half. Then you screw the oil filler tube to both the fill hole and the bottom of the bottle. Ideally you have another set of hands. Next pour some fluid into the bottle and have someone spin the wheel back and forth. I did something like 10 rotations each direction if I recall correctly. If there is air in the system, it will bubble up the tube and the fluid will go down. I probably had to do 20 or 25 cycles to get all the air out, so don't give up until you don't get any more bubbles. Obviously keep fluid in the bottle as it goes down. Now the steering is very responsive.

Thank you for this. I strongly suspect that there is air trapped in the steering pump as I could find no play in the linkages at the rudder post/cylinder. The wheel itself was also firmly attached. I have procured the necessary fluid and fill hose and will work on this when I get out to the boat in a couple of weeks. First thing first though, I will follow the suggestion of seeing whether the rudder moves when the wheel is turned but feels sloppy. I am almost certain that it doesn't because you can feel when the pump engages the fluid and moves the rudder. The helm reacts accordingly under way. Hoping I can purge any air easily and without spilling fluid all over Hell and creation. I have a history. ?

 

[Keysdisease]

Hoping I can purge any air easily and without spilling fluid all over Hell and creation. I have a history. ?

I HATE it when that happens!!

 

[CruisingTheICW]

We have a new to us 2005 Mainship Pilot 34 Rumrunner II and noticed during sea trials that there was some play in the helm of about 1/4 turn or so before you feel any back pressure and then the helm begins to respond. In essence, you can turn the wheel freely back and forth for at least a quarter turn (perhaps even more) with no resistance and without anything happening. In a hydraulic system I would have expected immediate pressure and response in either direction. I makes for rather sloppy steering or you have to anticipate it.

Is this a sign that there is air in the system that needs to be bled? Does anyone have any experience with this and is there an easy way to bleed the system at the helm station?

Thanks in advance for any advice and counsel.

Best,
Doug

Doug… I had the same experience last year with my 2006 Mainship 34T. We bled the system twice and have had no problems since.

 

[Cartouche]

Comodave, that is a darn good question and I am embarrassed to say that I do not know and cannot readily find out at the moment as I am 500 miles away from the boat for the time being.

It's probably a seastar system, On our 390 that was a normal day at sea, very small rudder

 

[aviator7836]

Problem Resolved - Thank You!

Thanks to all the shared experience here, I was able to order the Sea Star hydraulic fluid and fill tube using the links provided by other members above. There was definitely an air pocket in the steering pump that quickly bubbled out when I added fluid (and somehow managed not to spill much at all in the process of disconnecting the hose).

With the fluid bottle and fill tube connected, I exercised the steering pump stop to stop 10 to 15 times. No further air bubbles came out after the initial burst and the play in the steering was eliminated. As suggested above, I wicked a little of the fluid back out of the filler port with the corner of a paper towel to leave a small air gap under the cap so as not to create undue pressure and feel every turn of the pump vanes. Steering is now smooth and responsive. If I had to guess, I would say that the pump only took an ounce or two of fluid.

To answer other's questions: The rudder was not initially moving and indeed there was play in the helm of about 90 degrees of turn before the rudder would respond. This was clearly due to the low fluid level in the steering pump and made for sloppy feeling steering under way. After bleeding the air from the pump the rudder responded immediately to helm inputs. Yay! The entire job took less than 20 minutes. Nothing like having the right knowledge and tools for the job. Thank you!

As for leaks, I did detect a very small leak at one of the fittings on the back of the steering pump. Just enough to make the hydraulic line a bit wet but no drips or puddles beneath. Didn't seem to be enough to yield the air pocket in the pump but perhaps over a very long period of time it had. No other leaks were detected. I tightened the fitting carefully, dried off the dampness on the hydraulic line, and will monitor closely going forward.

That's about it. Bleeding and filling the steering pump is quite simple with the right fluid and fill hose. If you have sloppy steering, check for leaks in the system, then bleed the steering pump as described in this thread. Worked like a charm for us!

Thanks all,
Doug

 

[Comodave]

Glad it worked out for you.

 

[aviator7836]

What is your route to get to Maine? If it includes Long Island Sound, look me up when you're in the area.

Hello backinblue,

We are in your area transiting Long Island Sound and plan to spend the next two nights (Thursday and Friday) at the Mystic Seaport. Happy to meet with if it suits you and your schedule. I tried to PM you with a more detailed message but it was blocked.

Hope you are well!

Doug