Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-07-2020, 02:09 PM   #21
Senior Member
 
Todd R's Avatar
 
City: Wrightsville Beach
Vessel Name: Time & Tide
Vessel Model: 2005 34T Mainship
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 176
Hi Doug,
Check the float switch for the high water pump. Disconnect one of the grey leads going to the float switch (May have to cut) then connect all other wires/plug and see if this resolves your alarm sounding. If so, then that float switch may be faulty (always on).
Todd
Todd R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2020, 03:04 PM   #22
Guru
 
Dougcole's Avatar
 
City: Carrabelle, FL
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: '05 Mainship 40T
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
FYI Steve Cyr's Stella Blue website has electrical schematics for his (previous) MS 400. I took a quick look and it does show different battys feeding different pumps. I did not see any relays which I'm guessing will be there for the loss of power logic... maybe I missed it w a quick glance. Thought it might help w troubleshooting if you have questions.
Spec Sheets & Drawings
See DC Elec & scroll down

Thank you Don, that does help a little bit. I scrolled down to the last page of the DC wiring schematic which shows the bilge pump wiring. If I am reading that correctly, it certainly appears that the high water pump, alarm and indicator light are all wired into the FS for the HW pump. It doesn't show another float switch for the alarm. Nor does it show a relay or how the other three pumps are tied into the alarm circuit.


Maybe I am missing something?
Dougcole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2020, 03:05 PM   #23
Guru
 
Dougcole's Avatar
 
City: Carrabelle, FL
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: '05 Mainship 40T
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd R View Post
Hi Doug,
Check the float switch for the high water pump. Disconnect one of the grey leads going to the float switch (May have to cut) then connect all other wires/plug and see if this resolves your alarm sounding. If so, then that float switch may be faulty (always on).
Todd

Thanks Todd,


I did that already, cut the wire to the HW Pump FS, it did not turn off the alarm. Also, with the plug disconnected the FS on the HW pump works perfectly.


Crazy, I know.
Dougcole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2020, 07:50 PM   #24
Guru
 
Dougcole's Avatar
 
City: Carrabelle, FL
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: '05 Mainship 40T
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,992
Oh boy. Three more hours into this project today and very little headway. It's becoming one of my most frustrating boat jobs ever.


Here's what I learned.



I found another couple of plugged wire bundles behind the ER breaker panel that serve the pumps and the HW alarm. One of the plugs has four wires that go to it, Brown w/white, Brown w/pink, Brown w/Purple and solid red. Unplugging this plug causes the alarm and the pumps to turn off, but allows the pumps to run when the float switched or manual switches are turned on. Also, and this is key, with that plug disconnected when I raise the float switch on the HW pump the HW pump AND the alarm come on. But with that plug disconnected activating the HW pump doesn't turn on the other three pumps. I'm fine with that.


Still though, I like to know how things work, so I did A LOT more digging.





On the port side of the aft bulkhead of the ER, behind the house batteries there is a white plastic box like cover, about 10 by 6 inches. I took off that cover and found 7 (!) more relays all run through a buss bar. I posted a pic below. It's not real easy to reach and the wiring in there is a tangled mess, typical Mainship style. Nothing is labeled.


The positive wires for the pumps and alarms are all brown with different color stripes, white, pink, purple, blue, brown.


Tracing these wires led to the bundle of relays behind that plastic cover. All of them APPEAR to serve the various pumps and the alarm.



The positive wire on the alarm squawker on the FB (there is no squawker on the lower helm) is brown with a white stripe. I found a brown w/white wire leading into the plug that turns off the alarm when disconnected. I then traced it from the plug into the box of relays. Found the relay it runs to. Disconnected the relay. Connected the plug. The alarm came on and all three pumps started running again.


Next, I traced the wires from the buss bar to the relays. All of the relays pull power from the buss. So I disconnected the main power wire to the buss, which meant no power to any of those relays. Verified that none of them had power with my multi meter. Reconnected the plug. All three pumps and the alarm turned on.



I can't figure it out. At this point I think I'm just going to leave that plug disconnected and call it a day. I really don't want the three main pumps to turn on when the HW pump activates anyway.


I know this is a long, confusing post, I'm just doing it because I think others may face this issue as well. If you've stuck with me this far, thanks. And thanks for all of the help.
Attached Images
 
Dougcole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2020, 08:31 PM   #25
Guru
 
Dougcole's Avatar
 
City: Carrabelle, FL
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: '05 Mainship 40T
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,992
Here's the plug that seems to shut off the "all on" pumps function.
Attached Images
 
Dougcole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2020, 03:45 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
LongJohn's Avatar
 
City: Watts Bar Lake, Tn River
Vessel Name: RedBoat
Vessel Model: MS 34T
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 144
Had a similar problem on my 2005 34T. There are 7 (seven) relays that control the 4 pumps and operating lights and alarms. The relay that controls the high water pump was hung closed. To figure this out, I had to remove all to the relays to the bench and test them individually. Test equipment included a 12V power supply, a volt meter, and a hammer. The hammer was most useful.
__________________
LongJohn
LongJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2020, 04:29 PM   #27
TF Site Team
 
Bacchus's Avatar
 
City: Seneca Lake NY
Vessel Name: Bacchus
Vessel Model: MS 34 HT Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,474
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongJohn View Post
Had a similar problem on my 2005 34T. There are 7 (seven) relays that control the 4 pumps and operating lights and alarms. The relay that controls the high water pump was hung closed. To figure this out, I had to remove all to the relays to the bench and test them individually. Test equipment included a 12V power supply, a volt meter, and a hammer. The hammer was most useful.
Where were your relatives located on your 34T?
__________________
Don
2008 MS 34 HT Trawler
"Bacchus"
Bacchus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2020, 05:22 PM   #28
Guru
 
Dougcole's Avatar
 
City: Carrabelle, FL
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: '05 Mainship 40T
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongJohn View Post
Had a similar problem on my 2005 34T. There are 7 (seven) relays that control the 4 pumps and operating lights and alarms. The relay that controls the high water pump was hung closed. To figure this out, I had to remove all to the relays to the bench and test them individually. Test equipment included a 12V power supply, a volt meter, and a hammer. The hammer was most useful.

Can you give me more detail as to the testing procedure? I don't want to have to pull all seven, that would be a PITA.
Dougcole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2020, 07:55 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
LongJohn's Avatar
 
City: Watts Bar Lake, Tn River
Vessel Name: RedBoat
Vessel Model: MS 34T
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 144
In my case the relays were mounted to a bulkhead behind the 12V breaker panel. Six identical relays were arranged in 2 parallel columns about 3" apart. These things were daisy chained together, with primary circuits triggering secondary circuits which triggered the next relay, etc. Just above and between the columns was the faulty relay that controlled the high water alarm. The relay tested good with the volt meter, but wouldn't transfer current to the secondary when 12V was applied to the primary. Until I hit it with the hammer. It also made me feel better.
__________________
LongJohn
LongJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2020, 08:08 PM   #30
Guru
 
rgano's Avatar
 
City: Southport, FL near Panama City
Vessel Name: FROLIC
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II since 2015. GB-42 1986-2015. Former Unlimited Tonnage Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,322
My bilge pumps on my boats have always been directly wired and never dependent upon the functioning of relays. What purpose do these complicated relays perform other than as potential failure points?
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area
rgano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2020, 09:14 PM   #31
Guru
 
Dougcole's Avatar
 
City: Carrabelle, FL
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: '05 Mainship 40T
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongJohn View Post
In my case the relays were mounted to a bulkhead behind the 12V breaker panel. Six identical relays were arranged in 2 parallel columns about 3" apart. These things were daisy chained together, with primary circuits triggering secondary circuits which triggered the next relay, etc. Just above and between the columns was the faulty relay that controlled the high water alarm. The relay tested good with the volt meter, but wouldn't transfer current to the secondary when 12V was applied to the primary. Until I hit it with the hammer. It also made me feel better.



Ha! I totally understand wanting to hit it with a hammer. I'm about at that point as well.


For now, I'm going to stick with it as it is, everything functions except that the three primary pumps no longer auto activate when the HW alarm turns on. I prefer it that way.


I've learned a lot here though, and I now have two spare relays in my box. I like knowing how things work (or are supposed to work) on my boat. I have a feeling that another one of those relays may fail in the future.
Dougcole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2020, 09:23 PM   #32
Guru
 
Dougcole's Avatar
 
City: Carrabelle, FL
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: '05 Mainship 40T
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgano View Post
My bilge pumps on my boats have always been directly wired and never dependent upon the functioning of relays. What purpose do these complicated relays perform other than as potential failure points?

Now that's a damn good question. I love almost everything about my Mainship, but the wiring/rigging left a lot to be desired.


My guess? They had the cockamamie idea that all four pumps should automatically turn on when the HW alarm triggered, so they came up with this system that would keep Rube Goldberg awake at night. It would be so much simpler and more reliable to have each pump wired directly to the bank, each with a float switch and a manual switch. And a HW alarm wired interdependently of everything else.


It's kind of mind boggling that they used this system. I see a tear out/rewire of the pump system in my boat's future.


Have you checked your boat? Based on John's 34T, my 400T and Baccus' boat all having the square dancing relays I wouldn't be surprised if yours does as well.
Dougcole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2020, 02:16 PM   #33
Member
 
City: Erie, PA
Vessel Name: Alpha Juliet
Vessel Model: Mainship 400
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 12
And I just noticed that as you're flicking the breaker for the blower, something (a relay) is clicking up by the helm. These things are wiring nightmares!
TrawlerAJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2020, 09:42 AM   #34
Senior Member
 
LongJohn's Avatar
 
City: Watts Bar Lake, Tn River
Vessel Name: RedBoat
Vessel Model: MS 34T
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 144
My recollection is that these 7 relays on my 34T do not effect (affect?) bilge pump operation. Pumps with float switches are always hot through separate breakers under the ER hatch. The relays managed indicator lights and alarm circuits
__________________
LongJohn
LongJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2020, 05:53 AM   #35
Guru
 
rgano's Avatar
 
City: Southport, FL near Panama City
Vessel Name: FROLIC
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II since 2015. GB-42 1986-2015. Former Unlimited Tonnage Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,322
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongJohn View Post
My recollection is that these 7 relays on my 34T do not effect (affect?) bilge pump operation. Pumps with float switches are always hot through separate breakers under the ER hatch. The relays managed indicator lights and alarm circuits
Whew, that's good to know. I know MS did some dubious stuff on my boat, but pumps through relays would have been the height of folly IMHO.
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area
rgano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2020, 06:46 AM   #36
TF Site Team
 
Bacchus's Avatar
 
City: Seneca Lake NY
Vessel Name: Bacchus
Vessel Model: MS 34 HT Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,474
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongJohn View Post
My recollection is that these 7 relays on my 34T do not effect (affect?) bilge pump operation. Pumps with float switches are always hot through separate breakers under the ER hatch. The relays managed indicator lights and alarm circuits
Thats my understanding.
Not required to make each pump run auto or manual.
They should only control alarm and turning on all other pumps when the high water sw triggers the high water pump.
__________________
Don
2008 MS 34 HT Trawler
"Bacchus"
Bacchus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2020, 11:29 AM   #37
Guru
 
Dougcole's Avatar
 
City: Carrabelle, FL
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: '05 Mainship 40T
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
Thats my understanding.
Not required to make each pump run auto or manual.
They should only control alarm and turning on all other pumps when the high water sw triggers the high water pump.

That's how it seems to me as well. Disconnecting that plug in my pic above essentially disables all of those relays. Everything still works, including the HW alarm, but all of the pumps don't turn on when the HW alarm activates.





It took me a lot of thinking, tracing and experimenting to figure that out, most of it while I was hunched over in the aft section of my ER. It always takes me a long time to puzzle/blunder my way through electrical stuff though, so I guess that shouldn't have surprised me.


Do you guys think I can just remove all of those relays and their wiring now that I'm not using (and don't want) that function? I wouldn't mind getting rid of some of that spaghetti.
Dougcole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2020, 05:55 PM   #38
Guru
 
rgano's Avatar
 
City: Southport, FL near Panama City
Vessel Name: FROLIC
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II since 2015. GB-42 1986-2015. Former Unlimited Tonnage Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
Doug
You are absolutely correct.
Here's a picture of mine and guess your is the same. Activating sw lights alarm light and activates all four other pumps. Label even states loss of power to pump also activated alarm. You might start by verifying power to pump on auto side. Attachment 105721
I went out today to check. Flipping that emergency pump switch only activates the 4,000 GPH emergency pump. No other pumps activate.
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area
rgano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2020, 08:45 PM   #39
Guru
 
Dougcole's Avatar
 
City: Carrabelle, FL
Vessel Name: Morgan
Vessel Model: '05 Mainship 40T
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgano View Post
I went out today to check. Flipping that emergency pump switch only activates the 4,000 GPH emergency pump. No other pumps activate.

Interesting. That is how my system is working now as well, since I disconnected that plug for the relays. I wonder if they didn't install the relay mess on the pilots?
Dougcole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2020, 09:03 PM   #40
Guru
 
rgano's Avatar
 
City: Southport, FL near Panama City
Vessel Name: FROLIC
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II since 2015. GB-42 1986-2015. Former Unlimited Tonnage Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,322
I have indicator lights on the helm console showing when any of the tree regular BPs activates plus the orange placard with light and manual switch for the emergency (HW) pump. I can go into the cabin at the power panel to set any of the three regular BPs to manual or auto.
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area
rgano is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012