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Old 12-23-2020, 09:59 AM   #121
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Heres an article about the increased use of hybrid boats for thosexwho dont know about it.
Also, just checked and see that Hickley's electric boat uses BMW i3 batteries. https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear...e-diesel-72748
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Old 12-23-2020, 10:02 AM   #122
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I'm fine with 30 amps too. The other big benefit to induction is dramatic reduction in excess heat. For small boats like ours, good benefit, at least in warmer climates. If I didn't enjoy baking and making pizza, would be a much easier decision on gas vs electric. The induction hobs are definitely a game changer for stove top.
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Old 12-23-2020, 10:08 AM   #123
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mwweebles......"I realized ive pissed you off"....wrong on that too. I dont go by emotion, but by reason.
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Old 12-23-2020, 10:18 AM   #124
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mwweebles......"I realized ive pissed you off"....wrong on that too. I dont go by emotion, but by reason.
Yikes! This has been reasoned thinking? Now that is a scary thought.

I need a better policy about feeding trolls......

Peter
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Old 12-23-2020, 10:25 AM   #125
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Yikes! This has been reasoned thinking? Now that is a scary thought.

I need a better policy about feeding trolls......

Peter
Yes, all my posts are reasoned ones, not emotional. It was a false assumption to suggest i was pissed off. I often point out false logic like that.
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Old 12-23-2020, 10:34 AM   #126
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Yes, all my posts are reasoned ones, not emotional. It was a false assumption to suggest i was pissed off. I often point out false logic like that.
My apologies David. You just seem so angry and defensive. I guess I just assumed it was not your normal self. I stand corrected!

Best of luck on whatever you're looking for. There really is some good knowledge on this forum. But you do have to be open to it, not just use it as a platform to express yourself.

Peter
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Old 12-23-2020, 10:36 AM   #127
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LOL (read this somewhere)
I am not arguing with you, I am merely explaining why I am right and you are not.
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Old 12-23-2020, 11:25 AM   #128
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This oven works on an induction cooktop (it is aluminized steel). It heats up way faster than the propane oven without putting extra moisture and CO2 in the galley. Folds down and goes in a drawer when not in use. The interior is lightly smaller than my old propane oven, but big enough for us. Unfortunately, everybody seems to be out of them right now. Covid?

I took the microwave out when I bought my boat. A microwave is kind of limited and slower than the induction top. Seemed like a lot of space wasted on something only good for reheating coffee.
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Old 12-23-2020, 11:49 AM   #129
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This oven works on an induction cooktop (it is aluminized steel). I took the microwave out when I bought my boat. A microwave is kind of limited and slower than the induction top. Seemed like a lot of space wasted on something only good for reheating coffee.
Marco - you actually use this and it works well? I remember them from when I was young and car-camping, but have never used one. I figured it was a bit of a gimmick.

We just had our galley totally remodeled - all old cabinets torn out, new ones built and installed. We agonized about the microwave - whether to keep it or replace with a cabinet. Like yourself, small boat with immediate consequences to space-related decisions. We use a MW a fair amount for reheating and par-cooking potatoes and such. In the end though, decided to ditch the MW and go with more cabinet storage. I'm a little worked I will miss it.

But......in keeping with OldDan's idea to ditch the propane range and replace with an induction cooktop and separate dual-purpose MW/Oven, I might be able to get the MW after all. Probably won't happen for us as we made the decision and remodel is almost complete. If I knew a year ago what I know now, I'd buy a combination oven and try it at home to see if it works well. Its been several years, but the old ones didn't work well as either a MW or an oven.

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Old 12-23-2020, 12:29 PM   #130
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My apologies David. You just seem so angry and defensive. I guess I just assumed it was not your normal self. I stand corrected!

Best of luck on whatever you're looking for. There really is some good knowledge on this forum. But you do have to be open to it, not just use it as a platform to express yourself.

Peter
Apology accepted for your false assumption. And Im open to people rebutting my strong and very controvsrsial statement that ie stoves are safer than gas ones. As soon as somebody shows that's wrong I'll be happy to concede the point. So far, nobody has.
And thanks for wishing us good luck. In fact we dont go by luck anymore than we do emotion. We analyze, and buy what we like the best(and it will be from a company that answers us, and not from any who dont, as per another thread on that.)
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Old 12-23-2020, 12:40 PM   #131
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As to how propane gets to the bottom of the boat, I heard the fellow in Duncan Bay was working on the boat and drilled a hole to install something and hit the propane line without knowing.
Propane is like water, it will seek the lowest place it can find, and then fill the boat.
We loved the propane on our last boat, but the induction on the present boat is so good, we would not go back.
So stupidity
And if he would have drilled into his 240v power supply for the stove?

But if you aren't stupid
Have your gas bottles in a proper locker outside of the vessel (required by law here)
Have thermocouples for auto shutdown if flame goes out (required by law here)
And a sniffer
How then does it leak below?
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Old 12-23-2020, 12:48 PM   #132
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Sure...depends. A recent retro fit by some couple found that 4Kh of solar was adequate for all their needs, and i think they said they had everything. If one cant put that much in, then they might becable to go for larger storage, or run the genset more.
We have 2.25 kW (9 x 250w panels) of solar taking up almost the entire roof space of a 60 fter.
No way could we get another 7 panels up there.
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Old 12-23-2020, 12:54 PM   #133
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rslifkin.....yes an actual breadmaker would be more efficient. And it would take up less space than that extra case of beer so many have on board.
We have a breadmaker on board
Stopped using it after several months
No where near as good as the bread that comes out of the gas oven.
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Old 12-23-2020, 01:07 PM   #134
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Explosive gasses are a problem in addition to having an electrical system on your boat. It is a risk analysis issue. That doesn't mean that it isn't a risk. Understanding risk is great. Avoiding risk may be better.
In assessing risk, hours of exposure are important. Every boat has an electrical system, but using it at high capacity whether from a genset or inverter to power a range increases the risk. That risk is absent with a propane range, replaced by the risk of a propane leak. This is also time limited to range use, as any properly installed propane system will have a shut off at the tank, which is topologically overboard.

There are risks to both. The problem in quantifying the difference, is that the absolute risk with either is vanishingly small. Dividing two very small numbers, each with a large potential estimation error, is meaningless. So while you might assert that electric is safer than gas by some imagined or theoretical consideration, there is no evidence for that assertion as both are statistically and provably safe. Many more people drown by falling overboard than are killed by either.

To David's obsession of space requirements for batteries, the power density of various battery technologies are very well documented. LA are about 60 Wh/L, LiCo about 550 Wh/L, and LFP about 330 Wh/L. So a 200 KWh LFP battery is at least 22 cu ft. Diesel by the way, is about 10,700 Wh/L, which is why electric trawlers will not be popular anytime soon. The same 22 cu ft tank will give you 6,400 KWh, about an order of magnitude better even after energy conversion efficiencies are considered.
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Old 12-23-2020, 01:09 PM   #135
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You could ask the guys at Alva Yachts, say for their 50 monohull....they offer either 110 or 240 KwH battery packs. Or do you think theyre new, and dont know what theyre talking about. I challenge you to find out the weight and dimentions of the 110 option, which is likeply enough for most people, and since you obviously dont know. Me and my partners would get the 240.
Some info here

It seems a 20kwh bank is 408 kg and costs $19,000
A 110 kwh bank would be 2244 kg (5000 lb) and cost $100,000+

A 240kwh bank over 10,000lb and $200,000 +

https://www.commodoreaustralia.com.a...torage-system/

Add: this site has dimensions on an 18kwh bank
https://sunwatts.com/18-5-kwh-fortre...thium-battery/
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Old 12-23-2020, 01:25 PM   #136
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No one has mentioned fuel cells. I wonder why.
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Old 12-23-2020, 02:35 PM   #137
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Some info here

It seems a 20kwh bank is 408 kg and costs $19,000
A 110 kwh bank would be 2244 kg (5000 lb) and cost $100,000+

A 240kwh bank over 10,000lb and $200,000 +

https://www.commodoreaustralia.com.a...torage-system/

Add: this site has dimensions on an 18kwh bank
https://sunwatts.com/18-5-kwh-fortre...thium-battery/
Not sure if the Alva 50 uses those, but they offer them, so they must fit, and the weight dostribution too. Indeed, many boats have tons of balkast by other materials. One company thatvalso makes them is called Corvus, and we see Hinckley uses BMW i3 batteries in their electric boats.
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Old 12-23-2020, 02:45 PM   #138
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Not sure if the Alva 50 uses those, but they offer them, so they must fit, and the weight dostribution too.
There are dozens of these "concept" boats online. Few if any ever actually get built. Not quite proven yet and I always have doubts about the far reaching claims.
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Old 12-23-2020, 02:50 PM   #139
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We have 2.25 kW (9 x 250w panels) of solar taking up almost the entire roof space of a 60 fter.
No way could we get another 7 panels up there.
What? You don't have 29 m2 (>300sf) of unobstructed roof space?

I love these theoretical table-top exercises. They sound so wonderful until you break-down the numbers:

A 210kwh battery bank has a potential of about 715,000 Btu. What does a 210kw battery bank look like and what does it take to charge it?

- if traditional Flood Acid GC T105s, There are over 150 of them, cost almost $20,000, weigh over 7-tons, and occupy a space of over three cubic yards. Swapping them out every 5-years would likely take a week and a couple bottles of Ibuprofen.
- If you had a 200A alternator on each of two engines (400A total), it would take two full days of running to charge
- If you used the 16-panel array, it would take 10-full days to charge
- If you wanted to charge using a generator running a 250A charger, would likely take a 12KW generator and would take over 3.5 days. Or you could go to some sort of industrial 3-phase setup and get 500A of charging, but that's well beyond my pay-grade.

And for all that, you avoid burning the equivalent of around 15 gallons of diesel. ((715k Btu / 125K Btu per gal diesel) / 0.33 efficiency))

BTW - this line of thinking is very active in the sailing community. Jimmy Cornell, of World Cruising Routes fame, recently abandoned a solar-only project for a sailing cat, presumably due to some of the harsh realities of the above. Maybe he should talk to some of the new-breed of trawler builders. Sounds like they've cracked the code on a battery-powered trawler - apparently the sails on Cornell's cat inhibited efficiency.

Peter
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Old 12-23-2020, 02:57 PM   #140
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There are dozens of these "concept" boats online. Few if any ever actually get built. Not quite proven yet and I always have doubts about the far reaching claims.
Many hybrid electric boats have already been built.
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