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Old 12-22-2020, 03:53 PM   #81
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rslifkin - my guess is you're all set and have a great setup for your needs. But....if starting from scratch, given the added complexity of ignition protection for gassers, not sure a large battery system with a ton of switches and connections is necessarily safer than a propane system, especially since a gas boat has enhanced ventilation systems to evacuate combustible gases.

I'm not arguing one way or the other. I'm really comfortable with my decision to run propane for primary cooking, and use solar/battery for small appliances such as an induction hob, an instapot, and an electric tea kettle. But to suggest that one approach is safe and the other is not is just plain wrong. It's parroting back Internet chatter and not based in facts.

Peter
Glad i didnt say one is safe and the other isnt. I said that an electric stove is safer than a gas one.
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Old 12-22-2020, 03:55 PM   #82
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Concerns like that (and certain parts not coming in ignition protected versions) are why as much of my electrical system as practical is outside of the gasoline containing spaces. And that's also why I'm not going as far as planning to run the stove and other high draw items on battery / inverter. Being able to run the coffee maker, toaster, and stuff like that without the generator is good, but firing up the generator (and listening to it and the blowers) is no big deal when I need the stove away from the dock.

If I were truly designing from scratch, the boat wouldn't have gassers in it.
Yes, and most new boats, designing from scratch, are going more electric.
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Old 12-22-2020, 05:22 PM   #83
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Great information. The 400 has a summer kitchen at the rear of the flybridge. I will add solenoid in locker and propane sensor in main salon. And if they are like a CO sensor they probably have a 5-7 year life. I'm removing headliner due to damage and replacing radar so running propane line will be easier.
The 400's that I used to deliver had a propane locker on the port side "overhang", just on the the water side of the seating.
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Old 12-22-2020, 05:30 PM   #84
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If I had to do it all over again, I would have ordered our boat with propane. For years I looked into changing it, but the plus's do not warrant it.

I saw it noted and I agree. We normally are on the hook, and when it's time to cook we turn on the genset (which is very quiet) and use the time to charge the batteries (yes, we do have solar panels, but find we need the genset about an hour anyway) and to make hot water (for those who say to use the engines, my engines are louder than the genset and we do like to stay for days / weeks in one place).

My suggestion, something that I am going to look into, is an induction oven.

Enjoy!
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Old 12-22-2020, 05:46 PM   #85
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If I had to do it all over again, I would have ordered our boat with propane. For years I looked into changing it, but the plus's do not warrant it.

I saw it noted and I agree. We normally are on the hook, and when it's time to cook we turn on the genset (which is very quiet) and use the time to charge the batteries (yes, we do have solar panels, but find we need the genset about an hour anyway) and to make hot water (for those who say to use the engines, my engines are louder than the genset and we do like to stay for days / weeks in one place).

My suggestion, something that I am going to look into, is an induction oven.

Enjoy!
Interesting. How did you decide on ordering electric in the first place?

Steve Dashew writes about going electric 10 years ago. They sampled induction with a two burner hot plate and installed a permanent cook top based on satisfaction. I think he had gas prior. He said he used a Panasonic electric oven that worked well and was very efficient.

Does induction technology extend to ovens?
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Old 12-22-2020, 09:42 PM   #86
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So do I but the battery bank alone probably cost about $20,000 here

And when you aren't running the engine, what charges the battery then?
Magic?
Actually, Li Ion battery prices are running at about 43 cents per watthour. The battery pack would cost $8,600.
The good news is that cooking would take at most 1 kw-hour per day. The refrigerator probably would consum at about 2 kwh. That leaves us with the hot water tank an the Air Conditioner to be serviced with 16 kwhs. Now at the hook it is probably windy enough to make AC not necessary and in hot days hot water directly from a tank/watermaker would probably be available at one full 6-gallon tank per kwh.
In such a scenario, wr are talking about running the main for about 3.5 hours every two or three days.
And that is no longer magic. That is quite close to plain facts.
IMHO things are going to continue to get better for electric solutions as prices will continue to go down and substantial reductions on maintenance will make them the favorite and safe solutions for the DIY boater.
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Old 12-22-2020, 10:09 PM   #87
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Actually, Li Ion battery prices are running at about 43 cents per watthour. The battery pack would cost $8,600.
.
You did see the bit where I said here?
Here being Australia

And your $8600usd is still near 4x more than our AGM bank
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Old 12-22-2020, 10:16 PM   #88
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Another bogus comparison. The one we are talking about is gas stoves compared to electric induction ones. Has that heavier than air gas ever leaked to the bottom of a boat and blew it up? Yes. An electric one? Ive never heard of such. In fact, do boat insurers consider whether there is gas on board?
You have heard of gas lockers,thermocouples and sniffers right?

Explain how the heavier than air gas can make it to the bottom of the boat?
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Old 12-22-2020, 10:18 PM   #89
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In fact, do boat insurers consider whether there is gas on board?
No boat insurer has ever asked me that question.

I changed out my electric range for a propane one. I did it because I don't want to run the genset to make tea. And also because if I can run the oven for an hour without the genset (batteries and induction don't do that).

Paranoia about your propane stove blowing up is misplaced, in that it is far down the list of risks you take every day. The risk of blowing up with your propane stove and getting electrocuted by your induction cooktop are effectively equal, and effectively zero. Worry instead about a heart attack, or drowning, or alien abduction - all are more likely.
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Old 12-23-2020, 12:18 AM   #90
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Prove it.
Oh, you make it so easy. Electricity does cause fires on a boat. Usually, it is the unfused circuits in the engine room, but we could claim that it is other things, maybe a bilge pump. Okay, do you have an electric bilge pump? Yes? So the boat with a propane stove and one with an electric stove have the same likelihood of electrical fires started by the electric bilge pump. You can go through the entire rest of the electrical system. Same is same. The only difference is the stove. Let's say one is electric and one is propane.

Now, what is the electric stove? Is it induction or is it the old school electric that doesn't have an automatic timer that turns it off after 15 minutes? Does it a have a heat detecting surface that limits it to the selected temperature like induction? Does it have a sensor that turns automatically turns off the stove the pot is removed like induction? Wouldn't that be great on a propane stove? Take the pot off and it turns off? Much safer, but sorry, that option isn't available. Nor the heat detector. Nor timer. Nor temperature sensor.

Oh, and there is no open flame. (Open flame, for you kids, is a cooking method common in 16,000 B.C.)

Kidding aside, electric can be a problem. Any connection could create a spark (fresh water pump, inverter, engine room lights, macerator, toilet, starter, etc.). Do you have any of those? It isn't really a problem if as long as you don't have explosive gasses in your bilge. You don't have explosive gasses in your bilge do you???? Fortunately, explosive gases don't come from electrical wires. Guess where they come from?

Explosive gasses are a problem in addition to having an electrical system on your boat. It is a risk analysis issue. That doesn't mean that it isn't a risk. Understanding risk is great. Avoiding risk may be better.
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Old 12-23-2020, 12:41 AM   #91
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Goodness David, you are argumentative,and dogmatic with it.
We slept well,over 10 years of ownership, on our previous boat with trouble free LPG. We wish the new one had it instead of electric.
In my experience boat insurers require an LPG system certification. So they should.
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Old 12-23-2020, 05:37 AM   #92
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Actually, Li Ion battery prices are running at about 43 cents per watthour. The battery pack would cost $8,600.
The good news is that cooking would take at most 1 kw-hour per day. The refrigerator probably would consum at about 2 kwh. That leaves us with the hot water tank an the Air Conditioner to be serviced with 16 kwhs. Now at the hook it is probably windy enough to make AC not necessary and in hot days hot water directly from a tank/watermaker would probably be available at one full 6-gallon tank per kwh.
In such a scenario, wr are talking about running the main for about 3.5 hours every two or three days.
And that is no longer magic. That is quite close to plain facts.
IMHO things are going to continue to get better for electric solutions as prices will continue to go down and substantial reductions on maintenance will make them the favorite and safe solutions for the DIY boater.
Where can I find a lithium chemistry battery bank for anywhere close to $0.43/watt? Or is this for DIY build?

A 20kw bank is massive - a large bank for a house is 10kw. How would you charge such a bank on a boat? Given its almost certainly a 48 volt setup, how would you charge and step-down voltage to boat-voltage?

Point me in the direction of a 7kw bank (600AH) for $3000 and I'm all over it.

Peter
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Old 12-23-2020, 06:37 AM   #93
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As to how propane gets to the bottom of the boat, I heard the fellow in Duncan Bay was working on the boat and drilled a hole to install something and hit the propane line without knowing.
Propane is like water, it will seek the lowest place it can find, and then fill the boat.
We loved the propane on our last boat, but the induction on the present boat is so good, we would not go back.
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Old 12-23-2020, 06:40 AM   #94
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As to how propane gets to the bottom of the boat, I heard the fellow in Duncan Bay was working on the boat and drilled a hole to install something and hit the propane line without knowing.
Propane is like water, it will seek the lowest place it can find, and then fill the boat.
We loved the propane on our last boat, but the induction on the present boat is so good, we would not go back.
Exactly, its a heavier than air gas, and we know that detectors for it are not fool proof, thus some people cant even sleep roghtvwoth gas on board. New boats are going more towards electric induction...and they dont even take much power.
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Old 12-23-2020, 06:51 AM   #95
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mwweebles. You can get as much battery capacity as you want. One boat we're loking at has 210KwH ...enough for everything on that 55' one. You charge with solar, wind, genset.
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Old 12-23-2020, 07:09 AM   #96
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Goodness David, you are argumentative,and dogmatic with it.
We slept well,over 10 years of ownership, on our previous boat with trouble free LPG. We wish the new one had it instead of electric.
In my experience boat insurers require an LPG system certification. So they should.
Good thing I didnt say it was you, but somebody else who couldnt sleep with gas on board. Its also not clear how its...dogmatic....to hold the bold and controversial view that an ei stove is safer than a gas one.
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Old 12-23-2020, 07:11 AM   #97
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What are some of the top yacht builders besides Hinckley? Does anybody know if they install propane stoves, or induction ones?
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Old 12-23-2020, 07:14 AM   #98
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As to how propane gets to the bottom of the boat, I heard the fellow in Duncan Bay was working on the boat and drilled a hole to install something and hit the propane line without knowing.
Propane is like water, it will seek the lowest place it can find, and then fill the boat.
We loved the propane on our last boat, but the induction on the present boat is so good, we would not go back.
What about an oven? I totally get the benefits of induction cooktop (including energy efficiency), but I use an oven quite a bit. How do you handle this?

Thanks in advance -

Peter
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Old 12-23-2020, 07:21 AM   #99
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Peter.......Re oven, you either get enough battery capacity, or bake when the genset or main motor is running.
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Old 12-23-2020, 07:22 AM   #100
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mwweebles. You can get as much battery capacity as you want. One boat we're loking at has 210KwH ...enough for everything on that 55' one. You charge with solar, wind, genset.
David, before you rip-out responses on threads, suggest you do your homework. Nature of your response here clearly indicates you have no idea how big a 210 kwh bank of batteries is - equivalent to around 150 T105 Golf Cart batteries weighing almost 7-tons (or even 21 kwh if this is a typo as is common with your posts). You have no idea what a proper charging profile would be, and how much power it would take to charge a 210 kwh bank be it solar (acres), wind (think west Texas wind farm), or genset (50kw).

I know you're new to this and apparently have a purse full of cash to dump on a boat, but you might want to assume you're not the first to discover certain pearls of wisdom. Maybe.....just maybe, there are people on forums like this who stood in your shoes and asked the same questions (and found the right answers) 25+ years ago.

Peter
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